A VERY DARK Day for the USA!

[JonC]

JonC,

Hello JonC,

Hey Icon.

I think we have to remember that God's kingdom and the powers of this world are at odds. They work in opposition to one another.

I do understand why it would be desirable for Christians to be in secular power. I an grateful we have secular leaders. I can assume God put many of these Christians in those roles.

I believe the purpose for Christians being in roles of secular influence is to bear witness to the gospel (not to make the World a moral place).

But I also believe it is a matter of individual obedience. I am retired Army which some would consider anti-Christian. I am not arguing to condemn others, or to judge their roles. I am, however, arguing (strongly) my own beliefs and convictions.

You ask "can it be both?". I think this depends on the purpose. If we are participating in these worldly powers by becoming a part of the World or in an attempt to make the World godly then I would say "no". True morality has Christ as its Center.

BUT if we are participating to demonstrate the love of God, to be witnesses of Christ, to share the gospel....and that be what makes the world around us a better place (people being added to the Kingdom) then perhaps it can be both.

I lean more to the Early Church and Anabaptists on this topic. I did not always. But the more I look at politics the more I see corruption and futility.

I wonder if political involvement can be a stumbling block to our witness as well.

These are just things each person should consider and follow their own conscious. I will say and argue that I believe Christians should withdraw from the political arena.....but I would never try to prevent one from following their convictions (that is between them and God).

 

[JonC]

Chapter and verse.

Quantrill

1 Corinthians 5:12–13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Learn to fish.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's funny considering you are the biggest blow hard on this board. You the one who says "F" you to folks. You the one who threatens punches in the face. It's obvious your above post is describing yourself.

See prove my point... ahhhh.

 

[JonC]

Jon, your theology is getting as bad as Van's!

1 Corinthians 5:12–13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

You are claiming the passage means we are to judge the world?

Have you considered the writings of the Early church (why they did not engage in politics while engaging with politics)?

 

[JonC]

Exactly and amen? You didn't even know there were goat and sheep nations. You acted as if it were a crazy idea. Now you are 'exactly and amen'.

Now you attempt to dismantle the verse. You attempt to dismantle the nations into just individual people. You attempt to make it speak to only two groups of people the saved and the lost. But God said nations, because He meant nations. You discredit the Word of God.

Which brings me back to my question. If the believer shouldn't care if his nation is a sheep or goat, why does God judge the nations. (Matt. 25:31-32)

Quantrill

Gost and sheep nations is a crazy idea.

The Bible speaks of God dividing people as a Shepherd divides sheep from goats, wheat from tares.

And the word "nations" is speaking of people - not nations as in the US and UK.

 

[Quantrill]

1 Corinthians 5:12–13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Learn to fish.

The Christian is to judge those inside the Church. And he has no authority to judge those outside the Church. There is always the Church and State.

But this is not saying the Christian can't be part of the State government. And if and when he is, then he can exercise any authority the State gives him. And as a Christian he can impact the government in a Christian manner.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Gost and sheep nations is a crazy idea.

The Bible speaks of God dividing people as a Shepherd divides sheep from goats, wheat from tares.

And the word "nations" is speaking of people - not nations as in the US and UK.

Take it up with God. (Matt. 25:31-32)

Quantrill

 

[Reformed1689]

The Trump Administration was especially bad in its casual disregard for life.

Are you out of your mind?

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 Corinthians 5:12–13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

You are claiming the passage means we are to judge the world?

Have you considered the writings of the Early church (why they did not engage in politics while engaging with politics)?

the early church fathers like Cyprian had some rather strange views! Some held that a person could not be saved outside of the "church"! There are no Bible passages, certainly not 1 Corinthians 5:12–13, that forbids Christians from becoming "judges" in this fallen world, or from taking any other position of authority, like Headmaster in a school, or Governor, or Mayor. In fact, this would be very good for our society, which is very much godless!

 

[JonC]

The Christian is to judge those inside the Church. And he has no authority to judge those outside the Church. There is always the Church and State.

But this is not saying the Christian can't be part of the State government. And if and when he is, then he can exercise any authority the State gives him. And as a Christian he can impact the government in a Christian manner.

Quantrill

I never said that a Christian could not be a part of the State. I said that the Early Church believed that Christians should not be a part of the State, should not vote, and should not serve in the military. The Early Church writing assume that Christians would not be a part of the State. I do not see much in terms of telling Christians that they cannot be a part of the State until the Anabaptists. But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State.

I am saying that I believe Christians should not be a part of the State in terms of politics. That does not mean "cannot work for the state". I am talking about politics and worldly powers, not state jobs. I am employed as a Special Investigator retained by DoD. I work, indirectly, for the federal government.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you out of your mind?

no doubt! Trump helped by stopping federal money for abortions, etc. these Liberals have no real concern for the murder of the unborn!

 

[Reynolds]

See prove my point... ahhhh.

You prove my point.Comrade blow hard.

 

[JonC]

the early church fathers like Cyprian had some rather strange views! Some held that a person could not be saved outside of the "church"! There are no Bible passages, certainly not 1 Corinthians 5:12–13, that forbids Christians from becoming "judges" in this fallen world, or from taking any other position of authority, like Headmaster in a school, or Governor, or Mayor. In fact, this would be very good for our society, which is very much godless!

I disagree about your interpretation of Scripture - but like I said this is a matter of conscious. If you (or any other Christian) believes God is calling them to a public office then that is great. Follow that call. I also agree it is better for society to have Christians in power.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I also agree it is better for society to have Christians in power.

then you blow your own argument!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Early Church writing assume that Christians would not be a part of the State

and they are wrong! as there are on the heresy like the "eternal generation of the Son out of the essence of the Father"!

 

[JonC]

then you blow your own argument!

No I don't. I believe that it was God's will that Christ be handed over to wicked men to suffer and die. I do not believe that the wicked men were justified.

I also believe that God created the United States for His purposes. This was done primarily by Christian men (with a sprinkling of Deists). But I do not see how they would be biblically justified in their actions.

And it goes back to one's purposes in entering politics. Is it to "change the World"? If so, then it is wrong. Is it to be a witness of Christ? Then it may be good. But then you also have to consider if you are becoming a stumbling block and a witness against Christ to those who do not share your political views.

 

[JonC]

and they are wrong! as there are on the heresy like the "eternal generation of the Son out of the essence of the Father"!

I understand you believe those like Paul who from what we know of the man did not vote (but had that right) but dedicated his life to Christ to be wrong, but do you believe that it is a sin? What passage do you offer that says Christians must participate in worldly powers?

 

[SavedByGrace]

No I don't. I believe that it was God's will that Christ be handed over to wicked men to suffer and die. I do not believe that the wicked men were justified.

I also believe that God created the United States for His purposes. This was done primarily by Christian men (with a sprinkling of Deists). But I do not see how they would be biblically justified in their actions.

And it goes back to one's purposes in entering politics. Is it to "change the World"? If so, then it is wrong. Is it to be a witness of Christ? Then it may be good. But then you also have to consider if you are becoming a stumbling block and a witness against Christ to those who do not share your political views.

I don't think that you actually known what you are on about yourself! take another read of your own words in #113, last sentence.

 

[JonC]

I don't think that you actually known what you are on about yourself! take another read of your own words in #113, last sentence.

You are wrong on that part, but perhaps it is my lack of articulation. I'll try again.

I believe we are better when Christians are leaders. I believe that the nation is a more moral nation when Christians are in leadership (Christians being Christians who are moral and not just calling themselves "Christian" to get votes).

But I do not believe that is the role of a Christian. The world may be a more "moral" place, but the Church suffers. The Church suffers when the surrounding culture feigns Christianity. The world enters the Church and the faith becomes warm.

People need to decide who it is they are to follow - the World or God. And then devote themselves to that course. We have too many fence riders trying to keep one hand in each "kingdom".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You prove my point.Comrade blow hard.

See you are a jaggwad! Just admit it.