Alcohol

[InTheLight]

You keep repeating we can rejoice in the fact we drink wine. You must have a very shallow walk with the Lord to put drinking on the list as something to rejoice in.

I take it you've never read Isaiah 25:6? The Lord is going to serve us aged wine:

And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees. [KJV]

On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines. [NIV]

 

[12strings]

You keep repeating we can rejoice in the fact we drink wine. You must have a very shallow walk with the Lord to put drinking on the list as something to rejoice in.

I actually don't drink alchohol at all, but I was quoting scripture...here I'll give it again:

Deut. 14:26 - And spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

God encourages them to buy BOTH wine & strong drink, along with some meat, and to eat & rejoice.

And i think it was 12 Strings that likes to set around playing rock & roll music.

As soon as you provide ANY scripture that tells me this in any way a sin, I will stop immediately.

 

[12strings]

I beg to differ. The Bible says that the ruler of the feast said the usual tradition was to serve the good wine first, so that after the guests have "well drunk" [KJV] or "have become drunk" [NASB] they will then serve the inferior wine, "but you have saved the best for last."

People don't get "well drunk" on grape juice!

I would tend to agree with your DEDUCTION. But it is just that...deducing what Jesus' wine was from the context of what was said about OTHER wine.

 

[annsni]

I notice you and the guy that bought the whiskey for his stomach admitted you both used to drink. Could this be the problem, you just don't won't to let go of the past ?

Nope. I never had a problem with alcohol before and would be more than happy to partake again sometime if we are released from our particular ministry.

And i think it was 12 Strings that likes to set around playing rock & roll music. Does bad habbits from the past have that much control over you ? Common now, you can tell Dr. Phil.

I LOVE rock and roll music!! When I'm cleaning the house, I usually put on 80s alternative music on Pandora and have found not one song that I don't remember and sing along. When the kids are homeschooling and I want them to concentrate, I put on classical and when I just want to relax myself, I put on some jazz. Old hymns are great as well and I have a wonderful set of CDs that are hymn music done on handmade harps by these two young Mennonite girls. I have a wide taste in music and still love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.

 

[salzer mtn]

Could it be that all the scripture that pertain to drinking wine was because the water was so bad over in that country?

 

[Zaac]

The point is not that we are commaned to drink strong drink...but rather that God pointed to it as a blessing, something they could eat and drink "before the Lord and rejoice." It seems you are now saying that because we are no longer under the old testament law, not only are we allowed to eat pork...but we are FORBIDDEN to drink wine, and eat sheep & oxen.

THE MAIN POINT IS YOU ARE CALLING SOMETHING A SIN THAT GOD DOES NOT CALL A SIN. Something, in fact that God says can be used "before the Lord" and something we can "rejoice" in.

Nope. Sure didn't.

You don't know that what Jesus made was non-alchoholic grape juice...in fact you are changing the word from the biblical word "WINE." Whether it was alchoholic or not can only be deduced...it is not stated in scripture.

I didn't say that He changed it to non-alcoholic wine. I essentially said that it wouldn't make sense for Jesus to say to not get drunk and then produce that which makes people drunk.

I would venture that He produced grape juice, unfermented good BIBLICAL wine. But Scripture does not say.

That's why the whole of Scripture is taken into account. Which one causes conflict with something else that God says?

 

[InTheLight]

Could it be that all the scripture that pertain to drinking wine was because the water was so bad over in that country?

I have posted two verses that definitely refer to fermented drink (and 12Strings has posted others as well):

Numbers 28:7-8 God will accept an drink offering of fermented wine.
Isaiah 25:6 God will serve us fermented wine at a great feast.

yet none of the teetotalers addresses these verses. Why is that?

 

[12strings]

THE MAIN POINT IS YOU ARE CALLING SOMETHING A SIN THAT GOD DOES NOT CALL A SIN. Something, in fact that God says can be used "before the Lord" and something we can "rejoice" in.

Nope. Sure didn't.

Care to explain? are you saying...

1. ...You did not not say drinking alcohol is a sin? (If not, you have definitely implied it)

2. ...You argue that it is a sin, but also believe God has stated that it is a sin? (and if so, what is your biblical reason?)

3. ...Nope God didn't say we can rejoice in it?

 

[12strings]

Could it be that all the scripture that pertain to drinking wine was because the water was so bad over in that country?

It certainly "Could be" part of the reason there was lots of wine...but scripture doesn't say... It "Could be" that the reason God forbade shellfish was because it was fatty...we simply don't know, and so it does no good to speculate.

(EDIT: BY the way, I notice you missed my post #102)

 

[Zaac]

THE MAIN POINT IS YOU ARE CALLING SOMETHING A SIN THAT GOD DOES NOT CALL A SIN. Something, in fact that God says can be used "before the Lord" and something we can "rejoice" in.



Care to explain? are you saying...

1. ...You did not not say drinking alcohol is a sin? (If not, you have definitely implied it)

Nope. I don't imply things that I'm perfectly capable of saying. If I intend to say it, that's generally what you'll read.:laugh:

2. ...You argue that it is a sin, but also believe God has stated that it is a sin? (and if so, what is your biblical reason?)

I argue that what is a sin?

 

[salzer mtn]

I found this article about water

Because the scarcity of water in palestine, it is much appreciated there. For it's people absence of water is very serious ( 1 Kings17:1ff; Jer14:3; Joel 1 :20), and rain is a sign of Gods favor. The rivers of Palestine are mostly small and have little water in summer. Consequently it depends upon rain for it's source of water. This supplies springs and fountains, Cisterns are a necessity for the storing of water, and this if stored to long becomes filthy and a menace to health. In the summer there is no rain, so that vegitation is dependent upon heavy dew. Wells and pools, although comparatively scarce, are often mentioned in the bible (Gen 21:19, 24:11 John 4:6; 9:7) This proves to me that in that day they had little choice but to drink something because of the shortage of water.

 

[annsni]

Because the scarcity of water in palestine, it is much appreciated there. For it's people absence of water is very serious ( 1 Kings17:1ff; Jer14:3; Joel 1 :20), and rain is a sign of Gods favor. The rivers of Palestine are mostly small and have little water in summer. Consequently it depends upon rain for it's source of water. This supplies springs and fountains, Cisterns are a necessity for the storing of water, and this if stored to long becomes filthy and a menace to health. In the summer there is no rain, so that vegitation is dependent upon heavy dew. Wells and pools, although comparatively scarce, are often mentioned in the bible (Gen 21:19, 24:11 John 4:6; 9:7) This proves to me that in that day they had little choice but to drink something because of the shortage of water.

So because there was bad water, God told people to sin?

 

[salzer mtn]

As soon as you provide ANY scripture that tells me this in any way a sin, I will stop immediately.

On television sometime they put on a advertisement recordings called rocking to the oldies. I find that listing to this kind of music of the 50's and 60's takes me back to when i was a rebellious teen, because you can relate music and lyrics to the sins you committed in your youth. If a person is not careful a desire will arise in your heart for the days of youth and wildness associated with your favorite tunes of yester year. Not only a desire of looking back but a since of fleshly pride fills your heart of remembering how good looking, or masculine, or tough you used to be. All of this is vain glory that fills ones heart as he listens to music that was designed to put ones mind back into the world.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:24)

Confusing, isn't it?

That's very interesting. I've honestly never notice that contradiction before. I'll have to study it further.

 

[salzer mtn]

So because there was bad water, God told people to sin?

Did i say God told people to sin ? You refuse to consider the water issue because you might be wrong, and that won't do at all.

 

[salzer mtn]

A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:24)

Confusing, isn't it?

The bible says vinegar not sour wine.

 

[Arbo]

Because the scarcity of water in palestine, it is much appreciated there. For it's people absence of water is very serious ( 1 Kings17:1ff; Jer14:3; Joel 1 :20), and rain is a sign of Gods favor. The rivers of Palestine are mostly small and have little water in summer. Consequently it depends upon rain for it's source of water. This supplies springs and fountains, Cisterns are a necessity for the storing of water, and this if stored to long becomes filthy and a menace to health. In the summer there is no rain, so that vegitation is dependent upon heavy dew. Wells and pools, although comparatively scarce, are often mentioned in the bible (Gen 21:19, 24:11 John 4:6; 9:7) This proves to me that in that day they had little choice but to drink something because of the shortage of water.

Do we know as fact that the climate in Biblical days was as it is now? When the Israelites came to the land after leaving Egypt, it is mentioned as a land flowing with milk and honey. If it was a verdant land, it would be reasonable to assume that there was adequate water.

 

[annsni]

On television sometime they put on a advertisement recordings called rocking to the oldies. I find that listing to this kind of music of the 50's and 60's takes me back to when i was a rebellious teen, because you can relate music and lyrics to the sins you committed in your youth. If a person is not careful a desire will arise in your heart for the days of youth and wildness associated with your favorite tunes of yester year. Not only a desire of looking back but a since of fleshly pride fills your heart of remembering how good looking, or masculine, or tough you used to be. All of this is vain glory that fills ones heart as he listens to music that was designed to put ones mind back into the world.

See, then for you it is a sin but it is not for everyone else. When I listen to the 50s and 60s music, it was from before my time and I am able to enjoy the music for what it is - some good and some bad. I enjoy the 80s music because that was when I was a young adult, married and remember a lot of my life. I wasn't rebellious, married young (to a musician no less) and just enjoy the 80s music for what is is - some good and some bad. Today I'm mostly in to the worship stuff. But I still enjoy going back to enjoy the music of some of the old bands because - they were just good. It doesn't bring me back to "fleshly pride" - just a joyfulness.

 

[annsni]

The bible says vinegar not sour wine.

Do you know what many vinegars are made of?

I remember my mother opening a bottle of wine and saying "Ewwww!! This is vinegar!" and tossing it.

 

[annsni]

Did i say God told people to sin ? You refuse to consider the water issue because you might be wrong, and that won't do at all.

Where do I refuse to consider the water issue? Yes, I've heard the argument that they needed wine because of the water situation but that doesn't say too much to me in the "don't drink" argument. If it's a sin, it's a sin.

I've also heard the argument that Biblical wine was very watered down and I don't quite believe that. Yes, it was possibly a lesser alcohol content but people still got drunk on it so it definitely had alcohol and it seems like those who are against it are against even a drop so that argument don't fly.