Any Here Hold that we are not born with a sin nature?

[Yeshua1]

Fair enough. Two facts: The knowledge of good and evil is the source of the human sinful nature. The knowledge of good and evil always was the knowledge of our infinitely good God.

The Son of God in his incarnation has two sources of His knowledge of good and evil. First being God from His Father. Second from His human mother.

Please point out the difficulty.

The source of our sin nature is the Fall, caused by them disobeying God period, and Jesus was fully God and fully Man!

 

[Yeshua1]

We are all like Adam.He also was created with a sin nature or else he would not have sinned. This does not mean we are born sinners or that we are guilty of Adams sin. The Bible says we are born in sin not born sinners Scripture never says we inherited Adam's sin.
MB

If not sin natures, we are born innocent then?

 

[agedman]

Are we kind of spiritually sorta alive then?

“Dead in trespasses and sin” is the Scripture terms. Physical death is predetermined upon all.

This flesh lives only at the pleasure of the Creator/Sustainer.

One by will cannot add physical stature or length to their life, but are bound to death at conception.

Spiritually all have eternity. There is no spiritual annihilation.

Believers are given new creative form, others are left for the lake of fire called “the second death.”

Therefore, as Ephesians 2 states:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it isthe gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

 

[Yeshua1]

“Dead in trespasses and sin” is the Scripture terms. Physical death is predetermined upon all.

This flesh lives only at the pleasure of the Creator/Sustainer.

One by will cannot add physical stature or length to their life, but are bound to death at conception.

Spiritually all have eternity. There is no spiritual annihilation.

Believers are given new creative form, others are left for the lake of fire called “the second death.”

Therefore, as Ephesians 2 states:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it isthe gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Yes, but some here seem to saying that we are not away from God, we decide that later on, almost like born innocent state?

 

[AustinC]

Fair enough. Two facts: The knowledge of good and evil is the source of the human sinful nature. The knowledge of good and evil always was the knowledge of our infinitely good God.

The Son of God in his incarnation has two sources of His knowledge of good and evil. First being God from His Father. Second from His human mother.

Please point out the difficulty.

I contend your facts are not facts, but are, instead, assumptions.
The source of human sinful nature is breaking the covenant with God, which God established. The effect is that humans were made aware of evil and that their breaking of covenant was indeed evil.

The second Adam, being God, never broke the covenant and thus restores the new covenant with his chosen people.

I will not argue with you on this, I am simply pointing out our difference and thus our disagreement.

Peace

 

[Yeshua1]

I contend your facts are not facts, but are, instead, assumptions.
The source of human sinful nature is breaking the covenant with God, which God established. The effect is that humans were made aware of evil and that their breaking of covenant was indeed evil.

The second Adam, being God, never broke the covenant and thus restores the new covenant with his chosen people.

I will not argue with you on this, I am simply pointing out our difference and thus our disagreement.

Peace

Yours are scripture truths, his assumptions!

 

[agedman]

Yes, but some here seem to saying that we are not away from God, we decide that later on, almost like born innocent state?

Not innocent, but kept.

The Creator will not hold responsible that which is not responsible.

As that principle is applied to humankind, the Scriptures teach that there was a time God "winked" at sin. This was prior to the Law. Sin was certainly punished, but God stated that Christ preached (at the crucifixion) to those prior to the law in that place of keeping. The Scriptures are rather silent about all that, but to know that all at that time came under the Law, for all have the Law written upon their hearts (as Romans states).

Therefore, as this thread has strayed into infants, I hold that such are "kept" until they do by awareness and by self determination rebel against the very God and become knowledgeable of good and evil.

On a personal note, my wife and I can tell to the day that took place in our daughter. There was an actual shift in the countenance and the innocence was lost.

As far as being "away from God," I am not certain that any are ever away from God. That isn't about salvation, that is concerning His authority. "All power in heaven and earth are given to me," said the Lord Jesus.

The question of salvation involves knowing the need of salvation.

An infant or those born of physical damage may never have that "knowing" and therefore are safe in Him. If one does not have the "Knowledge of good and evil" then they are not accountable for such knowledge.

This does not apply to those who have gained such knowledge of good an evil. Those who have a conscience and awareness of right and wrong are in no manner able to escape other than by belief in the Savior.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not innocent, but kept.

The Creator will not hold responsible that which is not responsible.

As that principle is applied to humankind, the Scriptures teach that there was a time God "winked" at sin. This was prior to the Law. Sin was certainly punished, but God stated that Christ preached (at the crucifixion) to those prior to the law in that place of keeping. The Scriptures are rather silent about all that, but to know that all at that time came under the Law, for all have the Law written upon their hearts (as Romans states).

Therefore, as this thread has strayed into infants, I hold that such are "kept" until they do by awareness and by self determination rebel against the very God and become knowledgeable of good and evil.

On a personal note, my wife and I can tell to the day that took place in our daughter. There was an actual shift in the countenance and the innocence was lost.

As far as being "away from God," I am not certain that any are ever away from God. That isn't about salvation, that is concerning His authority. "All power in heaven and earth are given to me," said the Lord Jesus.

The question of salvation involves knowing the need of salvation.

An infant or those born of physical damage may never have that "knowing" and therefore are safe in Him. If one does not have the "Knowledge of good and evil" then they are not accountable for such knowledge.
t
This does not apply to those who have gained such knowledge of good an evil. Those who have a conscience and awareness of right and wrong are in no manner able en infants are born before Gd as being found judged and guilty in Adam!to escape other than by belief in the Savior.

The problem though is that even infants are born in Adam, so already under the effects of the Fall!

 

[agedman]

The problem though is that even infants are born in Adam, so already under the effects of the Fall!

Certainly, which is why the Scriptures state “all have sinned...”.

The question resolves (imo) not to sin but to accountability.

This is my opinion.
The rebellion of Adam is not found in the infant. Rather, the infant is as Eve, tricked unknowingly into the scheme. That is Scripture teaching concerning Eve and accountability. So, too, the infant may certainly find themselves doing evil, not knowing as Adam in rebellion knew.

However, there comes that instance when, as Adam, the child has “knowledge of good and evil.”

In Baptist circles that is the “age of accountability” and ne reason why infant baptism is not done.

 

[AustinC]

Certainly, which is why the Scriptures state “all have sinned...”.

The question resolves (imo) not to sin but to accountability.

This is my opinion.
The rebellion of Adam is not found in the infant. Rather, the infant is as Eve, tricked unknowingly into the scheme. That is Scripture teaching concerning Eve and accountability. So, too, the infant may certainly find themselves doing evil, not knowing as Adam in rebellion knew.

However, there comes that instance when, as Adam, the child has “knowledge of good and evil.”

In Baptist circles that is the “age of accountability” and ne reason why infant baptism is not done.

You have switched this away from scripture and into philosophy when you propose an "age of accountability."

 

[37818]

Adam.He also was created with a sin nature or else he would not have sinned.

I do not think that is so. After God made Adam and Eve, ". . . it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -- Genesis 1;31.

 

[37818]

. . . an "age of accountability."

It would the age where one needs to be born again. Mark 10:14-15.

 

[agedman]

You have switched this away from scripture and into philosophy when you propose an "age of accountability."

Not true.

I gave Scripture illustration pertaining to the principle taught.

If you are looking for a verse stating “all children go to heaven” then it isn’t there, any more than Scriptures state, “all believers go to heaven.”

The principle is that which I gave.

You may certainly opinion in a different manner.

I may opinion some believers only are apportioned to the new earth and others to the new heaven. Would you have Scriptures to refute that opinion? Doubtful.

So do you have Scriptures to refute that children prior to accountability are as Eve?

Did David go to the place of torment to join the child that died?

 

[37818]

The Fall was Adam and Eve disobeying God, period!

Are you denying what God had forbid? Genesis 2:17.

 

[agedman]

Are you denying what God had forbid? Genesis 2:17.

Sometimes folks only see “Spirit” aligned with death.

Death in the Scriptures nearly always pertains to physical cessation of viability. For the spirit breathed into mankind by God can never cease viability.

It can be encased in a new creation, or left unclothed in the “second death.”

 

[Yeshua1]

You have switched this away from scripture and into philosophy when you propose an "age of accountability."

For in Adam all sinned seems to be stating that all of us, save Jesus, were born corrupted by the Fall and already under Judgement! I know main reason some like age of accountability is to have babes and children innocent and going to heaven, I see that God by the Cross has provided for them saving grace....

 

[Yeshua1]

Not true.

I gave Scripture illustration pertaining to the principle taught.

If you are looking for a verse stating “all children go to heaven” then it isn’t there, any more than Scriptures state, “all believers go to heaven.”

The principle is that which I gave.

You may certainly opinion in a different manner.

I may opinion some believers only are apportioned to the new earth and others to the new heaven. Would you have Scriptures to refute that opinion? Doubtful.

So do you have Scriptures to refute that children prior to accountability are as Eve?

Did David go to the place of torment to join the child that died?

No, I think that we can infer that God will do what is right regarding babes and children....

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you denying what God had forbid? Genesis 2:17.

I am denying that they needed to know right from wrong in order to sin!

 

[AustinC]

I do not think that is so. After God made Adam and Eve, ". . . it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -- Genesis 1;31.

Adam was granted the capacity to disobey and thus break the covenant God made with him and Eve. Once Adam broke that covenant, he had no capacity to remake that broken covenant. Therefore, he lost free will to choose God. His offspring also are under this curse so that no human has the capacity to restore that covenant. Only God, by His Sovereign and gracious choice can bring that restoration.

 

[Yeshua1]

Adam was granted the capacity to disobey and thus break the covenant God made with him and Eve. Once Adam broke that covenant, he had no capacity to remake that broken covenant. Therefore, he lost free will to choose God. His offspring also are under this curse so that no human has the capacity to restore that covenant. Only God, by His Sovereign and gracious choice can bring that restoration.

Also shows why Jesus had to come via Virgin Birth, else wouldhave been corrupted in his humanity as we all are!