Any Here Hold that we are not born with a sin nature?

[MB]

I do not think that is so. After God made Adam and Eve, ". . . it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -- Genesis 1;31.

What do you about God telling Adam that the day he eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would surely die.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We are not told of Adams spirituality nor are we told of his nature. They call Christ the second Adam but personally I don't see how because Christ was God and Adam was a man. Christ being God first and man second resisted temptation but Adam could not.
MB

 

[MB]

Adam was granted the capacity to disobey and thus break the covenant God made with him and Eve. Once Adam broke that covenant, he had no capacity to remake that broken covenant. Therefore, he lost free will to choose God. His offspring also are under this curse so that no human has the capacity to restore that covenant. Only God, by His Sovereign and gracious choice can bring that restoration.

Are you saying Adam was saved and lost his Salvation when he sinned. The Bible never says Adam lost his freewill that's only in your imagination. No where in scripture does it ever say we are just a bunch of puppets on a string. That we can only act and do what God has directed.
MB

 

[MB]

For in Adam all sinned seems to be stating that all of us, save Jesus, were born corrupted by the Fall and already under Judgement! I know main reason some like age of accountability is to have babes and children innocent and going to heaven, I see that God by the Cross has provided for them saving grace....

Scripture does not say" for in Adam all sinned"
MB

 

[agedman]

For in Adam all sinned seems to be stating that all of us, save Jesus, were born corrupted by the Fall and already under Judgement! I know main reason some like age of accountability is to have babes and children innocent and going to heaven, I see that God by the Cross has provided for them saving grace....

Also shows why Jesus had to come via Virgin Birth, else wouldhave been corrupted in his humanity as we all are!

Would not a difficulty in your scheme then be in the reward system? Are those who never had the opportunity going to be denied?

Who does the Scripture intend as the account giver when the Scriptures state we (believers) must all stand before Christ and give an account?

The virgin birth does show that the sin nature is through Adam and not Eve.

I am not certain that the crucifixion has any words concerning babies.

 

[AustinC]

Are you saying Adam was saved and lost his Salvation when he sinned. The Bible never says Adam lost his freewill that's only in your imagination. No where in scripture does it ever say we are just a bunch of puppets on a string. That we can only act and do what God has directed.
MB

When Adam was created there was no need for salvation. So...no...I'm not saying what you are concluding.

I am saying that Adam broke the covenant God made with Adam and thus suffered the consequences of the curse.

Free will is never discussed in the Bible outside one reference to a free will offering under the Mosaic Law.

I am saying that Adam and all his offspring have no capacity to choose God and thus be saved by our great choice.
I can point to a Sovereign and say "save me". That Sovereign is under zero obligation to do what I ask or plead for. The Sovereign makes the choice as to whether or not He will save me. I cannot coerce the Sovereign or impress Him so that he makes his decision based upon my goodness.
Thus, I don't have free will. I have the ability to ask, but I don't have the ability to choose. Only God can choose to save me.

 

[percho]

Also shows why Jesus had to come via Virgin Birth, else wouldhave been corrupted in his humanity as we all are!

And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

I agree, had Joseph received Mary as his wife, yet knew her before she brought forth, the son conceived in her as a virgin, would not have been Emmanuel.

He would have been brought forth in iniquity even though he had been conceived in her out of Spirit as holy.

 

[percho]

When Adam was created there was no need for salvation. So...no...I'm not saying what you are concluding.

I am saying that Adam broke the covenant God made with Adam and thus suffered the consequences of the curse.

Free will is never discussed in the Bible outside one reference to a free will offering under the Mosaic Law.

I am saying that Adam and all his offspring have no capacity to choose God and thus be saved by our great choice.
I can point to a Sovereign and say "save me". That Sovereign is under zero obligation to do what I ask or plead for. The Sovereign makes the choice as to whether or not He will save me. I cannot coerce the Sovereign or impress Him so that he makes his decision based upon my goodness.
Thus, I don't have free will. I have the ability to ask, but I don't have the ability to choose. Only God can choose to save me.

Why was the Lamb already considered slain before Adam was created? In case he sinned?

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Ps 8:4,5

Or as YLT has it.

What is man that Thou rememberest him? The son of man that Thou inspectest him? And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.

Why was man made, at creation, a little lower than? Was it the same reason that Jesus, the Son of Man was made a little lower than?

Was, the death, looming ahead of him at creation?

 

[AustinC]

Why was the Lamb already considered slain before Adam was created? In case he sinned?

Are you sure your assertion is correct?

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Ps 8:4,5

Or as YLT has it.

What is man that Thou rememberest him? The son of man that Thou inspectest him? And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.

These two verses have no correlation to your assertion. I have no idea how you connect these verses with your assertion.

Why was man made, at creation, a little lower than? Was it the same reason that Jesus, the Son of Man was made a little lower than?

Was, the death, looming ahead of him at creation?

Clearly you have misunderstood the verses and thus you make a false assertion.

 

[percho]

Are you sure your assertion is correct?



These two verses have no correlation to your assertion. I have no idea how you connect these verses with your assertion.


Clearly you have misunderstood the verses and thus you make a false assertion.

Are you sure your assertion is correct?

Yes I am sure 1 Peter 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8 so state. BTW I read 5 or 6 commentaries that agree with me.

Redemption was the plan, before the sin, that brought the death, that would need to be redeemed.
Redemption from death, of the flesh and blood man, also destroys someone and something who was a sinner before the man was created.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Before the foundation of the world the Son of God was going to be manifested as the Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works.

That would require death. --- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:2,3 ----- The creation is complete, God rested, yet the creation is subjected to futility, not willingly.

In hope. The hope of redemption?

Once again. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

 

[MB]

When Adam was created there was no need for salvation. So...no...I'm not saying what you are concluding.

I am saying that Adam broke the covenant God made with Adam and thus suffered the consequences of the curse.

Free will is never discussed in the Bible outside one reference to a free will offering under the Mosaic Law.

I am saying that Adam and all his offspring have no capacity to choose God and thus be saved by our great choice.
I can point to a Sovereign and say "save me". That Sovereign is under zero obligation to do what I ask or plead for. The Sovereign makes the choice as to whether or not He will save me. I cannot coerce the Sovereign or impress Him so that he makes his decision based upon my goodness.
Thus, I don't have free will. I have the ability to ask, but I don't have the ability to choose. Only God can choose to save me.

Scripture never says we don't have freewill either. It never calls God Sovereign but in stead is described as all powerful and mighty God. However it does say
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
So then one who believes can be saved by there faith.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
All we have to do is repent and ask. You can deny what the scripture says but certainly you aren't abel to tell me where in scripture it says we are first regenerated so we can have faith.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Are you sure your assertion is correct?

Yes I am sure 1 Peter 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8 so state. BTW I read 5 or 6 commentaries that agree with me.

Redemption was the plan, before the sin, that brought the death, that would need to be redeemed.
Redemption from death, of the flesh and blood man, also destroys someone and something who was a sinner before the man was created.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Before the foundation of the world the Son of God was going to be manifested as the Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works.

That would require death. --- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:2,3 ----- The creation is complete, God rested, yet the creation is subjected to futility, not willingly.

In hope. The hope of redemption?

Once again. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Of course God knew he would redeem his elect from before the foundation of the world. He knew this because the adopted and predestined elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

What I don't follow is how your quoting of a few sentences, out of context, makes your pretext accurate. I do not follow your pathway of argument here at all.

 

[AustinC]

Scripture never says we don't have freewill either. It never calls God Sovereign but in stead is described as all powerful and mighty God. However it does say
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
So then one who believes can be saved by there faith.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
All we have to do is repent and ask. You can deny what the scripture says but certainly you aren't abel to tell me where in scripture it says we are first regenerated so we can have faith.
MB

Actually, the English word "Sovereign" is often used, especially by Ezekiel.

Second, faith is a gift...given by God...to the elect. This is why you always see faith in those whom God has chosen, yet never see it in those who reject and remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

A spiritually dead person cannot and will not repent. S/he does not have the capacity to do so without God giving them life.
A spiritually dead person does have the capacity to be remorseful and manipulative in a vain attempt to coerce God to stay his judgment. We see this in unsaved church members all the time. You see it constantly when you meet people who claim they are Roman Catholics.

 

[agedman]

Scripture never says we don't have freewill either. It never calls God Sovereign but in stead is described as all powerful and mighty God. However it does say
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
So then one who believes can be saved by there faith.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
All we have to do is repent and ask. You can deny what the scripture says but certainly you aren't abel to tell me where in scripture it says we are first regenerated so we can have faith.
MB

Have you neglected the verse that states, “not by the will of man.” Human “freedom of the will” doesn’t agree with the Scripture principles. Human will only extends to their own ability not that which is spiritual and spiritually endowed.

The spirit (will) of humankind, the Scriptures state, is set against the will of God. That is the principle of Scripture.

John1,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[MB]

Have you neglected the verse that states, “not by the will of man.” Human “freedom of the will” doesn’t agree with the Scripture principles. Human will only extends to their own ability not that which is spiritual and spiritually endowed.

I agree that it is God's will to save those who believe in God's Son, I disagree that God saves us against our will and forces us to believe. How ever if the woman at the well would have known who He was and simply asked Him she would have been saved

The spirit (will) of humankind, the Scriptures state, is set against the will of God. That is the principle of Scripture.

John1,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I agree that is by God's will that if we believe and ask we will be saved.
MB

 

[MB]

Actually, the English word "Sovereign" is often used, especially by Ezekiel.

Not in my Bible and it was translated by the English. Sovereign is misused by Calvininst to imply God dictates every single action of man Which not found in scripture.

Second, faith is a gift...given by God...to the elect. This is why you always see faith in those whom God has chosen, yet never see it in those who reject and remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

Wrong Faith is not the gift, Salvation is..
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Where does scripture state that Gentiles are chosen? What makes you think you are chosen?Did God tell you that

A spiritually dead person cannot and will not repent. S/he does not have the capacity to do so without God giving them life.
A spiritually dead person does have the capacity to be remorseful and manipulative in a vain attempt to coerce God to stay his judgment. We see this in unsaved church members all the time. You see it constantly when you meet people who claim they are Roman Catholics.

Then why send Salvation to the Gentiles?
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. Paul says we can hear it
MB

 

[agedman]

I agree that it is God's will to save those who believe in God's Son, I disagree that God saves us against our will and forces us to believe. How ever if the woman at the well would have known who He was and simply asked Him she would have been saved


I agree that is by God's will that if we believe and ask we will be saved.
MB

You are missing the point.

God moves despite the fallen will of human kind.

No person is ever saved that was not first impressed by the life giving Spirit of God. All that follows, the sense of need, the repentance, the joyful expressions, the peace, ... are directly related to that working of the life giving Spirit of God.

This is why in the midst of the conversation with old Nicodemus, the Lord makes statement concerning the Spirit.

The Scriptures do not teach the human will is free but slaved to sin and rebellion. Within that estate, the human will may only choose that which is perhaps good, but not perfect. All that is good eventually wears out. It becomes less and less good, and will be discarded.

All creation by God was pronounced “good” and yet is it not obliterated at the final judgement?

Humankind was pronounced “very good” but not perfect. The will of Adam, though very good, was not perfect.

If Adam had no such will that could invite and attain perfection, yet he walked and talked directly with God, how much less can one who has no such inclination attain by mere freedom of the will such an invitation of perfection.

Does perfection wait upon the inviting by imperfection?

Not so, the perfect first lays claim and the imperfect is made perfect by the authority and power of the perfect.

The unclean do not attend to clean but seek to make that which is clean unclean. It is the way of the world, but not that of God.

 

[agedman]

Where does scripture state that Gentiles are chosen?
MB

Have you not considered John 10?

 

[AustinC]

Not in my Bible and it was translated by the English. Sovereign is misused by Calvininst to imply God dictates every single action of man Which not found in scripture.


Wrong Faith is not the gift, Salvation is..
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Where does scripture state that Gentiles are chosen? What makes you think you are chosen?Did God tell you that


Then why send Salvation to the Gentiles?
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. Paul says we can hear it
MB

MB, you are wrong on all 3 counts. That's a strike out in baseball.
1) Get a different English translation and also look up synonyms for the word Sovereign.
2) You struggle with Ephesians 2:1-10. I understand that makes it hard for you to grasp what faith is.
3) You have a strange thought that only Jews are elect. Many have shown you your error. You persist in the error anyway.

 

[MB]

Have you not considered John 10?

Have you read and considered all that Jn 10 actually says
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. through Jesus we will be saved.
This certainly implies if we enter in we will be saved. It does not say if we are elect will be saved.
MB

 

[MB]

MB, you are wrong on all 3 counts. That's a strike out in baseball.
1) Get a different English translation and also look up synonyms for the word Sovereign.
2) You struggle with Ephesians 2:1-10. I understand that makes it hard for you to grasp what faith is.
3) You have a strange thought that only Jews are elect. Many have shown you your error. You persist in the error anyway.

Get a different when the one I have is the most accurate.
Your wrong I do not struggle with scripture at all certainly not Eph 2:1-10 I understand it perfectly
Strange you making like you are elect when scripture never says a Gentile is elect. Seems like you are trying to steal the favor of God. Gentiles are not elect and you can't prove you are. You claim I've been told and you are right there I have been told the heresies of the Calvinist religion but I stand on scripture for my Salvation what on earth do you stand on?. Oh I know your own private interpretation.
MB.