Appointed To Eternal Life?

[kyredneck]

KY from your understanding what were they elected to?
1] service
or
2] salvation

Mercy. Glory. In lieu of destruction.

Romans Chapter 9

22​	What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23​	and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24​	even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

"Afore prepared", being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Dont lie on God. You mean a god you have conjured up from your own heart and mind.

You must have a different bible or you have just crossed out all the verses that disprove your view.

It is sad that you support a failed philosophy rather than God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I just added these verses since you do not seem to have them in your bible or perhaps you just ignore them.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Of course, for they were made alive first so that they were given living ears to hear the message, do you think dead folk hear ? Duh

Your ability to ignore scripture is very telling BF. You do not want truth as that would point out the error of your view.

 

[Silverhair]

Mercy. Glory. In lieu of destruction.

Romans Chapter 9

22​	What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23​	and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24​	even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

"Afore prepared", being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad.

So your saying both Jacob & Esau were elect to "Mercy. Glory. In lieu of destruction."

So which is it KY what were they elected to?
1] service
or
2] salvation

 

[Wesley Briggman]

[Jhn 17:8-10 KJV]
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

 

[kyredneck]

So your saying both Jacob & Esau were elect to "Mercy. Glory. In lieu of destruction."

Romans Chapter 9

11​	for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12​	it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13​	Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

 

[Rye]

Acts of the Apostles 13:48 indicates as many as were appointed by mutual agreement with Paul's direction to eternal life believed.

I have conceded, thanks to JoJ's interpretation of the Greek, that it can be translated either as passive or middle. This is only my opinion, but passive makes the most sense when you take scripture as a whole. I think that's the reason why the majority of mainstream translations render it as "appointed" instead of "disposed".

But let's say for a moment that it should be a middle. At best, that only leaves the verse as an ambiguous statement. It's still quite a stretch to say that they were appointed to eternal life based on their act of doing something first, such as coming to an agreement.

 

[Silverhair]

[Jhn 17:8-10 KJV]
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

What is the point you are trying to make here?
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

You just showed that the people believed. Why, because they received the words that God had given the son. God did not give them faith as calvinism requires.

 

[Rye]

Into which category would you place 1 Jn 2:2? And why?

I'm not familiar with the resource you're using but the Apostle John uses "world" in many different ways. κόσμος (kosmos) could be referring to the earth, the world system, the whole universe, or simply just a place where people live.

Context does inform us of how we are to understand the word. That is why we are to read verses in context as to do otherwise can lead to all kinds of problems.

I agree. The key word here is "our", referring to believers. He is the propitiation for the sins of believers, not only for those who the author is addressing, but also for the sins of all of the rest of the believers in the whole world. If you want to say that He is actually the propitiation for the sins of every person in the whole world then you're stuck with universalism.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I think we've already covered this.

Or are you saying that God the Father and God the Son have conflicting desires?

If the Father's will is to give sheep to the Son and the Son came to fulfill the will of the Father, yet the sheep are able to resist coming to the Son, I'd say that would be a conflicting desire and also causes the Trinity to no longer be working in harmony with Itself.

Just as the bible says He is the propitiation for all, both those that receive Him and those that reject Him.

In what way does He propitiate for those that reject Him?

2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Again, notice the key word is "us", referring to believers. If you isolate verse 19 and say God that reconciled the world to Himself, that's universalism.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have conceded, thanks to JoJ's interpretation of the Greek, that it can be translated either as passive or middle verb. This is only my opinion, but a passive translation makes the most sense when you take scripture as a whole. I think that's the reason why the majority of mainstream translations render it as "appointed" instead of "disposed".

This is Gill's stuff that I began to 're-state' for us modern readers, but Rye already got the fine points Gill makes!

Excellent O.P., Rye, and your reply posts all make a Baptist proud. Thank you, very much!


"and as many as were Ordained unto Eternal Life believed";
Adapted from

Acts 13 Gill's Exposition

Faith is not the Cause of the Decree of Eternal Life,

Faith is not a Condition of the Decree of Eternal Life,

"but Faith a means Sixed in the Decree of Eternal Life,
that God has Placed as the Component by which God Relates the Decree of Eternal Life to an individual's soul,
in other words, God Communicates The Decree of Eternal Life,
by Granting the individual soul Repentance
and by Giving them Faith to Believe and Trust in the Message of Jesus' Accomplishment of the Gospel, by His death, burial, and resurrection.

and so, Faith is a fruit and effect of the Decree of Eternal Life,
and Faith is certainly what follows unto the Decree of Eternal Life, as in these Gentiles:

some would have the words rendered, "as many as were disposed unto Eternal Life believed";
which is not countenanced by the ancient versions.

"The Arabic renders it as we do, and the Syriac thus, "as many as were put, or appointed unto Eternal Life";
and the Vulgate Latin version, "as many as were pre-ordained".

Moreover, the phrase of being "disposed unto", or "for Eternal Life", is a very unusual, if not a very improper, and an inaccurate one;

men are said to be disposed to an habit, or to an act, as to vice or virtue, but not to reward or punishment, as to Heaven or Hell;

nor does it appear that these Gentiles had any good dispositions to Eternal Life, antecedent to their believing;
for though they are said, Acts 13:42 to entreat the apostles to preach the same things to them the next sabbath,
yet the words as there observed, according to their natural order, may be rendered "they", i.e. the apostles, "besought the Gentiles";

and in some copies and versions, the "Gentiles" are not mentioned at all:
and as for their being "glad", and "glorifying the word of the Lord", it is not evident that this was before their believing;

and if it was, such things have been found in persons, who have had no true, real, and inward dispositions to spiritual things,

as in many of our Lord's hearers; besides, admitting that there are, in some, good dispositions to Eternal life, Previous to Faith,
and that 'desiring' Eternal Life, and seeking after it, be accounted such, yet these may be where Faith does not follow;

as in the young rich ruler, that came to Christ with such an inquiry, and went away sorrowful:
as many therefore as are so disposed, do not always believe, Faith does not always follow such 'dispositions';

and after all, one would have thought that the Jews themselves, who were externally religious, and were looking for the Messiah,
and especially the devout and able women, were more disposed unto Eternal Life, than the ignorant and idolatrous Gentiles;

and yet the Gentiles believed, and Jews did not believe: it follows then, that the Gentiles' Faith
did not arise from previous dispositions to Eternal Life, but was the fruit and effect of Divine Ordination unto Eternal Life;

and the word here used, in various places in the book of Acts, signifies determination and appointment, and not disposition of mind;

see Acts 15:2 The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, ,
"who are ordained to eternal life" (y); and , "everyone that is written to eternal life"; (z) i.e. in the book of life; and designs no other than Predestination or Election, which is God's Act, and is an Eternal Act;
Predestination or Election, is God's Act whereby God Ordains souls to Eternal Life
as a Sovereign Activity of God, irrespective, and unconditional;

God's Sovereign Activity in Ordaining souls to Eternal Life, relates to particular persons, and is Sure and Certain to Effect Salvation:

God's Sovereign Activity in Ordaining souls to Eternal Life is a Genuine Ordination, not to an office,

nor is God's Sovereign Activity in Ordaining souls to Eternal Life an 'ordination' to the means of grace,

but God's Sovereign Activity in Ordaining souls to Eternal Life is God's Genuine and Spiritual Ordination to Grace and Glory itself;

God's Genuine and Spiritual Ordination is to a Life of Grace which is Eternal, and to a Life of Glory which is Forever;

God's Genuine and Spiritual Ordination is to Eternal Life which is a Pure Gift of God,
that is in the Hands of Christ, and to which His Righteousness Gives a Title:

and as a Pure Gift of God, in the Hands of Christ, God's Genuine and Spiritual Ordination to Eternal Life
show that being Ordained to Eternal Life is a Blessing of an Early Date by The Ancient of Days, in Eternity Past

and shows the Great Love of God to the persons Ordained to what? ETERNAL LIFE;
and shows the Certainty of those enjoying ETENAL LIFE.

WHO?

"and as many as were Ordained unto Eternal Life believed".

But let's say for a moment that it should be middle. At best, that only leaves the verse as an ambiguous statement.

It's still quite a stretch to say that they were appointed to eternal life based on their act of doing something first, such as coming to a mutual agreement.

Especially, after seeing a fresh study of a Miraculously Marvelous and Wonderful Doctrine like God having Ordained souls unto Eternal Life,
I wonder if those who insist on always making giant leaps and stretches aimed at simply admitting they don't believe the Bible,
understand that is exactly what Jesus was talking about, when He Prayed to God the Father and said,

"I Thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth,
because Thou Hast Hid These Things from the wise and prudent,
and Hast Revealed them unto babes."

 

[Brightfame52]

You must have a different bible or you have just crossed out all the verses that disprove your view.

It is sad that you support a failed philosophy rather than God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I just added these verses since you do not seem to have them in your bible or perhaps you just ignore them.

Dont lie on God. You mean a god you have conjured up from your own heart and mind.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your ability to ignore scripture is very telling BF. You do not want truth as that would point out the error of your view.

Nothing is ignored, you quoting scripture only makes you look the more foolish, all spiritual activity comes from life given. Every scripture you show about believing, presupposes eternal life has already been given.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not familiar with the resource you're using but the Apostle John uses "world" in many different ways. κόσμος (kosmos) could be referring to the earth, the world system, the whole universe, or simply just a place where people live.

Yes I know that we have to understand world from the context. In this case we see John referring to the sins of himself and those he is writing to {our sins}. But he then expands who's sins have be propitiated by Christ, the whole world. But propitiation does not mean that we are forgiven as that only happens when one trusts in Him.

I agree. The key word here is "our", referring to believers. He is the propitiation for the sins of believers, not only for those who the author is addressing, but also for the sins of all of the rest of the believers in the whole world. If you want to say that He is actually the propitiation for the sins of every person in the whole world then you're stuck with universalism.

But that is not what the verse says is it. You have to read that into the text so that it fits your theology.

And what do we see in 1Jn 2:2? We see the expansion of Christ's appeasing sacrifice from those to whom John was writing but also for the "whole world"
I think you have misunderstood what propitiation means;
Propitiation
the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Webster

Propitiation does not mean that we are forgiven but that the wrath of an offended one, God, has been turned away. We see this here and also
1 John 4:10 and Romans 3:25.
The wrath turned away is the wrath of God;
The person making the propitiation is Christ;
The propitiating offering or sacrifice is his blood.

Only one person was saved at the cross, the thief who trusted in Christ. While His death was sufficient to appease the wrath of God for the whole world it does not save us. We are saved by faith in the risen Christ.
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

If the Father's will is to give sheep to the Son and the Son came to fulfill the will of the Father, yet the sheep are able to resist coming to the Son, I'd say that would be a conflicting desire and also causes the Trinity to no longer be working in harmony with Itself.

We are only Christ's sheep when we follow Him. Just as we are only in Christ through faith. Many will hear the gospel message but not all will accept that truth and turn to God for salvation. Those that do are then His sheep. So no conflict in the God head.

In what way does He propitiate for those that reject Him?

The wrath turned away is the wrath of God;
The person making the propitiation is Christ;
The propitiating offering or sacrifice is his blood.

So the blood of Christ did just what it was intended to do and did it for the whole world.

Again, notice the key word is "us", referring to believers. If you isolate verse 19 and say God that reconciled the world to Himself, that's universalism.

So why would you isolate verse 19? Is that how you do bible study?

If anything we should expand what we read to 2 Corinthians 5:14-21
Reading in context will clear up your confusion. Paul is not preaching universalism but rather salvation through faith in the risen Christ.

 

[Van]

I showed you what it means, but you have corrupted the word of God incessantly

Note, folks, the claim to unreferenced material in the past, and an "against the person" ploy in the present. Go figure

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing is ignored, you quoting scripture only makes you look the more foolish, all spiritual activity comes from life given. Every scripture you show about believing, presupposes eternal life has already been given.

So you finally admit that it is not the biblical text that you trust but your philosophy. You have to read into the text your presuppositions from your calvinism.

So should I be quoting calvinist philosophy rather than scripture?

 

[Van]

I have conceded, thanks to JoJ's interpretation of the Greek, that it can be translated either as passive or middle. This is only my opinion, but passive makes the most sense when you take scripture as a whole. I think that's the reason why the majority of mainstream translations render it as "appointed" instead of "disposed".

But let's say for a moment that it should be a middle. At best, that only leaves the verse as an ambiguous statement. It's still quite a stretch to say that they were appointed to eternal life based on their act of doing something first, such as coming to an agreement.

First, you seem not to grasp it makes no difference to the meaning of the verse whether tasso is in the passive or middle voice, they received Pauls direction (passive voice) and took the direction to believe (middle voice).

Yes, as translated the verse is ambiguous. But "as many as took Paul's direction to eternal life, believed" is not ambiguous. This interpretation does not mean God gave everyone who believed eternal life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Recall the second and third soils of Matthew 13, they believed but did not received eternal life. Only those whose faith is credited as righteousness by God are given eternal life by spiritually transferring the person into Christ.

 

[37818]

As usual, what's your point? How does this change 'elected before being born'?

Does not teach being selection before birth. But rather not do to one's works.

 

[Van]

Romans 9:11 is an election not for salvation, but was conditional, the older was chosen to serve the younger. Anyone using the verse to claim election for salvation through faith in the truth is not conditioned on God crediting the person's faith as righteousness is a biblical illiterate.

 

[Brightfame52]

Note, folks, the claim to unreferenced material in the past, and an "against the person" ploy in the present. Go figure

I showed you what it means, but you have corrupted the word of God incessantly

 

[Brightfame52]

So you finally admit that it is not the biblical text that you trust but your philosophy. You have to read into the text your presuppositions from your calvinism.

So should I be quoting calvinist philosophy rather than scripture?

Nothing is ignored, you quoting scripture only makes you look the more foolish, all spiritual activity comes from life given. Every scripture you show about believing, presupposes eternal life has already been given.