Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

[Yeshua1]

Your vitriol is in good form today DHK - how do you keep up the name-calling and vitriol so consistently. You must have a secret. Please share it with us.

P.S. it is no surprise here that I do keep the seventh day of the week as the "Sabbath of the Lord Thy God" -- as scripture commands.

I think we all knew that -- be honest.

Here is an honest statement from the OP -- 7 points you have yet to refute (possibly because you are so busy posting evidence after evidence that the points I list are exactly what you oppose and exactly what they promote -- (As the OP claims you would do) while then adding wild claims that you are opposing the claims made about certain pro-Sunday groups)


========================================

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

Do you hold to the truth of the Investigative Judgement, and that one who worships on Sunday will have received the mark of the beast, as your prophetess herself stated then?

For if we are obligated to keep a part of the law of isreal, God commands us to keep all of them, so have you been found able to do that in your own walk with God then?

or is it the truth that none of us can keep the Commandments as God requires to merit favor, and so its by grace alone thru Faith alone ?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you hold to the truth of the Investigative Judgement, and that one who worships on Sunday will have received the mark of the beast, as your prophetess herself stated then?

For if we are obligated to keep a part of the law of isreal, God commands us to keep all of them, so have you been found able to do that in your own walk with God then?

or is it the truth that none of us can keep the Commandments

Is it your claim that the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship are all SDA for daring to admit to the Bible details in the first 6 points of the list in the OP.

if so what logic did you use to come to that conclusion?

Recall that the points are numbered for you to help you not lose track of the details.

And a sample list of the pro-sunday sources affirming all 7 of those points is given numerous times with not a single substantive objection that holds up - against that list being the actual views of those pro-sunday groups.

Again --


But the fact that the Ten Commandments are indeed the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant is sooo glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see it.

They freely admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are valid even while the ceremonial laws are fulfilled and ended after the cross.

"Baptist Confession of Faith"
"Westminster Confession of Faith"
C.H. Spurgeon
Andy Stanley
Matthew Henry
[FONT=&quot]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
R.C Sproul
"D.L. Moody"
"Dies Domini"

How is it then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship has figured out this same Bible detail that the pro-Saturday Sabbath Christians have figured out?

It is because the use of the Ten Commandments in both OT and NT indicate that it is the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant, the one Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So far we have three horribly flawed opposing views posted.

1. Pretend that the list of pro-sunday groups do not claim they affirm all 7 points listed in the OP, when we all know that they do affirm them.

Claim that only SDAs affirm those Bible points - and the pro-Sunday group does not exist. Even though SDAs affirm only 6 of the 7 and the pro-sunday groups listed are the ones affirming all 7.

2. Claim that the texts in the OP are not related to this topic even though no detail response shows that to be at all true.

3. Try to change the subject entirely to something like the Investigative Judgment - so the irrefutable points listed in the OP can be set aside for a minute using diversionary tactics.

And of course the obligatory "tons of vitriol"

New Years resolution folks -- gotta try and up that game a bit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Your vitriol is in good form today DHK - how do you keep up the name-calling and vitriol so consistently. You must have a secret. Please share it with us.

Where is the vitriol? Where is the name-calling? Where have I said anything that I shouldn't have said. Stop the false allegations.

P.S. it is no surprise here that I do keep the seventh day of the week as the "Sabbath of the Lord Thy God" -- as scripture commands.

The NT has no command.
Here is a good link, one of many that I can give you:
http://www.truthorfables.com/SDA_Cult.htm

I think we all knew that -- be honest.

We all know of the cultic teachings of the SDA. Let's be honest.
Here is another link you should read.
http://carm.org/religious-movements...s-carm-recommend-seventh-day-adventist-church

Here is an honest statement from the OP -- 7 points you have yet to refute (possibly because you are so busy posting evidence after evidence that the points I list are exactly what you oppose and exactly what they promote -- (As the OP claims you would do) while then adding wild claims that you are opposing the claims made about certain pro-Sunday groups)

I opposed each and every one of those because:
1. You related them to the SDA movement when they are not.
2. You relate Sunday to the Sabbath when it is not.
3. It is obvious you have evil intentions when you deliberately do things like this in a deceptive manner by deliberately changing the intent and purpose of what men have already written.
--That is not "vitriol." It is truth.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

It is not common ground. When the definitions are different between Christians and SDA there is nothing in common.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3

Refutation: The sabbath was not commanded.

2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.

Refutation: The Sabbath was a command given to Israel, and the nation of Israel was the only nation ever commanded to keep it.

3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.

The Sabbath has always been Saturday and has never changed.
The Apostles began worshiping on the first day of the week. But that is not the Sabbath.

4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God

The Sabbath is not part of the moral law of God; there is nothing moral or immoral about keeping or not keeping the Sabbath.

5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant

But the Sabbath was not one of those commands, and that can be easily demonstrated.

6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.

Keeping the Sabbath is opposed to the Gospel according to Gal.3:10 and James 2:10. If you keep the Sabbath, then start keeping the rest of the 613 OT laws. You are not consistent.

7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I don't BEND scripture. This, Scripture then applies to you:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--You "bend" or "wrest" the Scriptures to your own liking. How does the Bible describe you here, and what warning does it give you?

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

You agree because you belong to the cult of the SDA, and that is the only reason. That cult needs to be exposed.

 

[BobRyan]

Where is the vitriol? Where is the name-calling? Where have I said anything that I shouldn't have said. Stop the false allegations....We all know of the cultic teachings of the SDA.

You can't stop the vitriol even while in the middle of a claim to not use it.

WoW!

Here is an honest statement from the OP -- 7 points you have yet to refute (possibly because you are so busy posting evidence after evidence that the points I list are exactly what you oppose and exactly what they promote -- (As the OP claims you would do) while then adding wild claims that you are opposing the claims made about certain pro-Sunday groups)


========================================

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

The OP predicts that DHK will be at war with all 7 of the points held by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.

I opposed each and every one of those because:
1. You related them to the SDA movement when they are not.

And of course the nonsensical claim that pro-Sunday sources would only admit to those points - (6 of which are actually in the Bible) if they were somehow SDA.

When in fact that actual point in the OP is that these bible details are soooo glaringly obvious that even the pro-sunday scholars who are nothing at all in the camp of SDA's - get the point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You can't stop the vitriol even while in the middle of a claim to not use it.

WoW!

What vitriol? If the truth hurts you need to change. I provided links to demonstrate that the SDA movement is a cult. Is that what you are offended by? I am not sure. You simply accuse me of vitriol without saying why? I can take that as a false accusation without evidence in hand.

The OP predicts that DHK will be at war with all 7 of the points held by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.

No Baptist will agree with you because no Baptist defines these points as you do. That is plain for all to see. We are not of the SDA cult--plain and simple.

And of course the nonsensical claim that pro-Sunday sources would only admit to those points - (6 of which are actually in the Bible) if they were somehow SDA.

When the "SDA bent" is put on them, there is a major disagreement. Case closed.

When in fact that actual point in the OP is that these bible details are soooo glaringly obvious that even the pro-sunday scholars get the point.

All scholars distance themselves from the SDA movement, something that doesn't dawn on you.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

At which point DHK tries out a totally debunked bit of fiction

2. You relate Sunday to the Sabbath when it is not.
3. It is obvious you have evil intentions when you deliberately do things like this

already debunked here -

You mean in my opposition to his claim of bending the Sabbath? My opposing his 7th point?

By my opposing him you want to imagine that I am arguing in favor of the idea that he is keeping the 7th day sabbath by doing what I strongly oppose?? really??

Really??

who is reading this thread at such a shallow level that they are going for that??

I can't imagine even one serious Bible student going through the thread - ignoring all the details and just latching on to name-calling and vitriol saying 'yep that proves it for me'.

Is there even one person doing that?

Who??

You seem to be engaged in a bit of storytelling for your own benefit. How is that supposed to be compelling for the rest of us "given the facts" are what they are?

I find your logic illusive at that point.

having had the flaw in your false accusation exposed - you seem to have no choice but to resort to "repeating it" no matter how nonsensical your idea that my opposition to their point 7 -- is some odd way of endorsing them on that point!

how transparently flawed.

How helpful to the readers.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No Baptist will agree with you because no Baptist defines these points as you do.

And now for some actual fact to go with that fiction.

Now let's compare those same 7 points with C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

The very subjects DHK is most at war against - Spurgeon addresses in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

 

[DHK]

And now for some actual fact to go with that fiction.

The very subjects DHK is most at war against - Spurgeon addresses in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible. Nor is it worshiped the same way in which the Bible prescribes. Herein is your deceit.
They do not "keep the Sabbath," according to the law of God.
No Gentile does. You hypocritically say you do, but you don't.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

When I look around on this board to find someone who will bravely agree with me in opposing the 7th point they affirm in the list above --what an unexpected surprise to find

The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible.

Hmm -- Another voice on this thread that also objects to the 7ith point in that list rather than claiming it as "his own".

How nice to find some agreement here.

So then they "bent the Sabbath" from the 7th day of the week in the OT - to week-day-1 in the NT - and low and behold "I object" -- not too surprising since I am a Bible believing SDA on the subject of the Sabbath of the Bible.

But to find such handy objection by DHK on that very same point --well... what a nice thing to have DHK agree at least to some extent.

Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Section 22

[FONT=&quot]22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Worship and the Sabbath Day [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The light of nature shows that there is a God Who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is just and good, and Who does good to all. Therefore He is to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God has been instituted by Himself, and therefore our method of worship is limited by His own revealed will. He may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan. He may not be worshipped by way of visible representations, or by any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Worship is to be given to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to Him alone; not to angels, saints, or any other creatures. And since the Fall, worship is not to be given without a mediator, nor by any other mediation than that of Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Prayer, with thanksgiving, is one part of natural worship, and this God requires of all men. But to be accepted it must be made in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, and according to His will. It must be made with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; and corporate prayer must be made in a known language.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Prayer is to be made for lawful things, and for all kinds of people who are alive now or who shall live in the future, but not for the dead, nor for those who are known to have sinned the 'sin leading to death'. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reading of the Scriptures, preaching and hearing the Word of God, the teaching and admonishing of one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord; as well as the administration of baptism and the Lord's Supper, are all parts of the worship of God. These are to be performed in obedience to Him, with understanding, faith, reverence and godly fear. Also to be used in a holy and reverent manner on special occasions are times of solemn humiliation, fastings, and thanksgivings.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Under the Gospel neither prayer nor any other part of religious worship is tied to, or made more acceptable by, any place in which it is performed or towards which it is directed. God is to be worshipped everywhere in spirit and in truth, whether in private families daily, in secret by each individual, or solemnly in the public assemblies. These are not to be carelessly or wilfully neglected or forsaken, when God by His Word and providence calls us to them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works, words and thoughts about their worldly employment and recreations, and give themselves over to the public and private acts of worship for the whole time, and to carrying out duties of necessity and mercy. [/FONT]

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]


We SDAs don't particularly like that 7th point of theirs. That is why we say we only agree with 6 of their seven main points on this subject.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

When I look around on this board to find someone who will bravely agree with me in opposing the 7th point they affirm in the list above --what an unexpected surprise to find

Bob, this is from Spurgeon's Confession of Faith. It is not mine. He is a Calvinist; I am not. Why would you expect me to agree with it. That is your first fallacy.
Secondly, there is only one point I can see that I would agree, and that only if it is pre-conditioned.

5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
--The moral law is not equivalent to the Ten Commandments as previously defined. It does not include the Sabbath Day. There is nothing moral about keeping a ceremonial Jewish day.

Hmm -- Another voice on this thread that also objects to the 7ith point in that list rather than claiming it as "his own".

Laws are not bent! They are either obeyed or disobeyed. Spurgeon does not keep the Sabbath. He is trying to say in polite terms that he doesn't keep the Sabbath. Plain and simple. He is not a Jew. The Sabbath was made for the Jew. Read Exodus 31.

How nice to find some agreement here.

There is none.

So then they "bent the Sabbath" from the 7th day of the week in the OT - to week-day-1 in the NT - and low and behold "I object" -- not too surprising since I am a Bible believing SDA on the subject of the Sabbath of the Bible.

You do NOT "bend" scripture. One either keeps it or they don't. They don't keep it, and neither do you. How many of the offerings do you make?

But to find such handy objection by DHK on that very same point --well... what a nice thing to have DHK agree at least to some extent.

Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]


We SDAs don't particularly like that 7th point of theirs. That is why we say we only agree with 6 of their seven main points on this subject.

We don't agree on any of the points. You belong to the SDA, a cult. We have nothing in common.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, this is from Spurgeon's Confession of Faith. It is not mine.

I never place you in the class of Spurgeon. I think we all knew that by now.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

When I look around on this board to find someone who will bravely agree with me in opposing the 7th point they affirm in the list above --what an unexpected surprise to find

Originally Posted by DHK
The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible.

Hmm -- Another voice on this thread that also objects to the 7th point in that list rather than claiming it as "his own".

How nice to find some agreement here.

So then they "bent the Sabbath" from the 7th day of the week in the OT - to week-day-1 in the NT - and low and behold "I object" -- not too surprising since I am a Bible believing SDA on the subject of the Sabbath of the Bible.

But to find such handy objection by DHK on that very same point --well... what a nice thing to have DHK agree at least to some extent.





Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]


We SDAs don't particularly like that 7th point of theirs. That is why we say we only agree with 6 of their seven main points on this subject, and object to their calling Sunday the 4th Commandment Sabbath.

Originally Posted by DHK
The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible.

We don't agree on any of the points. You belong to the SDA, a cult. We have nothing in common.

except for this -- where you object to their point 7 - as I do.

Originally Posted by DHK
The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible.

thus you will need something above the low level of vitriol and name calling - if you are trying to distinguish your rejection of their point 7 from mine. I think we all knew that.


Here is where we all see your dilemma -

1. notice that you know they are wrong in point 7
2. you also know that if you accept all of their 6 points and also the fact that they are wrong in point 7 - then you have the bible position - mine. And currently you prefer man-made tradition to that option in true Mark 7:6-13 manner.

3. you abolish God's commandments by denying the first 6 obvious points in the Bible that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship accepts.

4. They try to abolish the Sabbath by accepting the 6 obvious points from the Bible - but then inventing a flawed 7th idea that even you know - is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I never place you in the class of Spurgeon. I think we all knew that by now.

except for this -- where you object to their point 7 - as I do.

thus you will need something above the low level of vitriol and name calling - if you are trying to distinguish your rejection of their point 7 from mine. I think we all knew that.


Here is where we all see your dilemma -

1. notice that you know they are wrong in point 7
2. you also know that if you accept all of their 6 points and also the fact that they are wrong in point 7 - then you have the bible position - mine. And currently you prefer man-made tradition to that option in true Mark 7:6-13 manner.

3. you abolish God's commandments by denying the first 6 obvious points in the Bible that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship accepts.

4. They try to abolish the Sabbath by accepting the 6 obvious points from the Bible - but then inventing a flawed 7th idea that even you know - is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't agree with any of the points, not even #7. With the 7th point they still have a Sabbath. The only Sabbath that the Gentile believer has today is Christ Himself. We are not bound by the law to worship on any specific day. Christians are not bound by God's ceremonial law.
When will you start keeping the other 613 laws of the OT?

 

[BobRyan]

DHK you have boxed yourself in a corner.

You reject the obvious 6 Bible based points of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship -- so you can't join them in that regard.

And we all know that I reject their 7th point - and you object to it as well.

So that means you join in with the SDA view on 1 of the 7 points. But you oppose the pro-Sunday scholarship view on all 7 points where they affirm them.

Now far be it from me to say you are SDA - but once you commit to the vitriol and name-calling solution you have been trying out here - then come up opposing the pro-Sunday scholars on all 7 points and yet only opposing the Biblically correct SDA view on 6 of the 7 points -- you have to do some soul searching.

Let's look at the 7th point

Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]

They have a "perpetual" Sabbath Commandment from the OT that they say "is changed to the first day of the week" in the NT...

Sad to say it DHK - but I think they are wrong in making that claim to be able to edit the Word of God - indeed a perpetual Commandment of God by their own confession. When man starts thinking he can "change" God's Word - he has started down a very wrong road.

And now here you come along also opposing them on these "details" in their 7th point.

How "surprising" DHK.

 

[DHK]

DHK you have boxed yourself in a corner.

You reject the obvious 6 Bible based points of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship -- so you can't join them in that regard.

And we all know that I reject their 7th point - and you object to it as well.

So that means you join in with the SDA view on 1 of the 7 points. But you oppose the pro-Sunday scholarship view on all 7 points where they affirm them.

Now far be it from me to say you are SDA - but once you commit to the vitriol and name-calling solution you have been trying out here - then come up opposing the pro-Sunday scholars on all 7 points and yet only opposing the Biblically correct SDA view on 6 of the 7 points -- you have to do some soul searching.

Let's look at the 7th point

Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]

They have a "perpetual" Sabbath Commandment from the OT that they say "is changed to the first day of the week" in the NT...

Sad to say it DHK - but I think they are wrong in making that claim to be able to edit the Word of God - indeed a perpetual Commandment of God by their own confession. When man starts thinking he can "change" God's Word - he has started down a very wrong road.

And now here you come along also opposing them on these "details" in their 7th point.

How "surprising" DHK.

No, Bob, I don't agree with you, and I don't agree with them. Your deceitfulness is trying to make them look like they agree with you when they actually don't. They redefine the word "sabbath," and you won't admit that.
They don't bend anything.

Their view is a "Christian Sabbath," which was the culture of that day.
I refuse to call Sunday "the Christian Sabbath," which was what they named it. It is not the Sabbath of any kind. The Sabbath does not exist for the Christian at all except for our "rest in Christ." Christ is our Sabbath.

Your loyalty to the Sabbath Day puts you under the law. When will you start keeping the 613 of the OT laws?

 

[Getting it Right]

No, Bob, I don't agree with you

In my humble opinion it is better left at that. Dragging this debate on for thousands of posts is not productive.

I'm voting now: DHK wins.

:wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

DHK you have boxed yourself in a corner.

You reject the obvious 6 Bible based points of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship -- so you can't join them in that regard.

And we all know that I reject their 7th point - and you object to it as well.

So that means you join in with the SDA view on 1 of the 7 points. But you oppose the pro-Sunday scholarship view on all 7 points where they affirm them.

Now far be it from me to say you are SDA - but once you commit to the vitriol and name-calling solution you have been trying out here - then come up opposing the pro-Sunday scholars on all 7 points and yet only opposing the Biblically correct SDA view on 6 of the 7 points -- you have to do some soul searching.

Let's look at the 7th point

Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]

They have a "perpetual" Sabbath Commandment from the OT that they say "is changed to the first day of the week" in the NT...

Sad to say it DHK - but I think they are wrong in making that claim to be able to edit the Word of God - indeed a perpetual Commandment of God by their own confession. When man starts thinking he can "change" God's Word - he has started down a very wrong road.

And now here you come along also opposing them on these "details" in their 7th point.

How "surprising" DHK.

No, Bob, I don't agree with you, and I don't agree with them. Your deceitfulness is trying to make them look like they agree with you when they actually don't.

Sadly the "details" do not agree. And even you failed to show that your opposition to the 7 points is at all like me -- since I AFFIRM their first 6 points at the very point that you are at war them them.

I can agree that your vitriol and name calling is not at all like them and not like me -- so in that you are ... DHk alone.

But other than that -- you admit to opposing their 7th point - and so do I.

They redefine the word "sabbath," and you won't admit that.
They don't bend anything.

Their view is a "Christian Sabbath," which was the culture of that day.

They say the 4th commandment Sabbath of the OT is "perpetual" but that they "changed the day" at the cross.

We both know that is what they say.

We all know it.

[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

[FONT=&quot]Notice the "details"

[FONT=&quot]1[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages

[FONT=&quot]Perpetual Commandment.

[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day.

[FONT=&quot]Sadly the very two points you i[FONT=&quot]nsist they D[FONT=&quot]ON'[FONT=&quot]T say ... well.. they "do".

[FONT=&quot]The result is that I can [FONT=&quot]quote THEM to make my case about what THEY say in point [FONT=&quot]7... you cannot.

[FONT=&quot]in [FONT=&quot]Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[DHK]

[FONT=&quot]Notice the "details"

it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages.

What details?
I don't agree with their interpretation.
I don't agree with your interpretation.
I don't agree with your interpretation of them.
What details? What can't you understand Bob?
Why do you have to resort to men? Is it because you know you will be defeated in the scriptures. When will you start obeying the other 613 OT commands? You are not consistent.

Perpetual Commandment.

2.and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first dayof the week and called the Lord's Day.

But it is not called the Sabbath. And it is not a perpetual covenant.

Sadly the very two points you insist they DON'T say ... well.. they "do".

Why? Do you want me to lie? No, Bob, I am not going to lie just for you.

The result is that I can quote THEM to make my case about what THEY say in point you cannot.

No you can't. No you haven't made your case. You haven't made any case at all. The SDA is a cult, and their case is that they are under the law, doomed under the law without Christ and without salvation. The law cannot save.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't believe either D.L. Moody or C.H. Spurgeon were SDA - yet they could honestly admit to some Bible details

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY​

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment

​

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT] __________________


Now let's compare that to the statement in the OP

Notice what "name" D.L. Moody gives to the 4th commandment??

Hint: The same name God gives it in Ex 20.

This is pretty easy - the A, B, C's of Bible reading.

But it is not called the Sabbath. And it is not a perpetual covenant.

You are certainly welcome to your own world - but for those of us dealing with the facts we find in the Bible and reporting accurately what even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits regarding those simple Bible details -- well we have to deal with reality.

"Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 22.


[FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Notice the "details"

[FONT=&quot]1[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages

[FONT=&quot]Perpetual Commandment.

[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day.

[FONT=&quot]Sadly the very two points you i[FONT=&quot]nsist they D[FONT=&quot]ON'[FONT=&quot]T say ... well.. they "do".


[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"Baptist Confession of Faith[FONT=&quot]" Section 22 points 7 and 8

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works, words and thoughts about their worldly employment and recreations, and give themselves over to the public and private acts of worship for the whole time, and to carrying out duties of necessity and mercy. [/FONT]

But it is not called the Sabbath. And it is not a perpetual covenant.

How sad.

 

[BobRyan]

Why do you have to resort to men? Is it because you know you will be defeated in the scriptures .

You were already proven wrong in scriptures -- I did that in the OP.

The "men" quoted are simply pointing out that this is not an SDA issue but rather the majority of pro-sunday scholarship opposes your war against that 7 point list in the OP.

And as it turns out - they are right on 6 of the 7 points.

in Christ,

Bob