Asking for scriptural rebuttal to TULIP

[Reynolds]

Being a Calvinist is not like being a Lutheran. There is no Concord to follow. Calvinist refers to the soteriological tenets of Calvin's followers as outlined in TULIP. I don't know of any person who directly follows all that Calvin wrote. It would be more accurate for the OP to state he does not follow the Reformed Church, Christian Reformed Church, Presbyterian Church, etc, than to say he doesn't follow Calvin because he was an anti-semite. His statement makes no logical sense.

I personally do not trust the theological observations of someone stupid enough to believe infant baptism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please quote scriptures rather than philosophical talking points and address the scriptural points made in the post.

Romans 6:20/Romans 6:16/John 8:36

 

[atpollard]

I personally do not trust the theological observations of someone stupid enough to believe infant baptism.

If your church holds "baby dedications" (as mine does) then it is a matter of semantics and a misappropriation of a ceremony, since we both (Paedobaptists and Credobaptists) believe that our children are holy [1Co 7:14].

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 6:20/Romans 6:16/John 8:36

You're going to have put a little more effort than simply a verse list if you want a discussion.

 

[MB]

wrong thread

 

[George Antonios]

If your church holds "baby dedications" (as mine does) then it is a matter of semantics and a misappropriation of a ceremony, since we both (Paedobaptists and Credobaptists) believe that our children are holy [1Co 7:14].

What do you think we credobaptists understand by holy?

 

[Yeshua1]

You're going to have put a little more effort than simply a verse list if you want a discussion.

Paul and Jesus both affirmed that the natural state of sinners is the nature like satan himself, so well not submit/yield to God by itself!

 

[MB]

Paul and Jesus both affirmed that the natural state of sinners is the nature like satan himself, so well not submit/yield to God by itself!

Show us this scripture you claim is by Christ and Paul.
MB

 

[Particular]

I don't want to derail this thread but define what you mean by the term Universalist?... If you were addressing me?... Brother Glen

You state:
"I expect to see you all there..."

Is that all humanity or just all at the BB who claim Christian faith?

Are you a universalist? Will all humanity reside in the Kingdom of God, eventually?

 

[Particular]

Your post does not address the challenge of my OP. You left out your scriptural reference to refute TULIP. Still pliantly waiting.

Why would I refute these 5 points as they are a response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants?

 

[Particular]

So it is conditional on God's elect to be saved and saved without merit on God's elect's part.

How so?

 

[Particular]

If your church holds "baby dedications" (as mine does) then it is a matter of semantics and a misappropriation of a ceremony, since we both (Paedobaptists and Credobaptists) believe that our children are holy [1Co 7:14].

You have clearly not met my children...[emoji16]

 

[Reynolds]

If your church holds "baby dedications" (as mine does) then it is a matter of semantics and a misappropriation of a ceremony, since we both (Paedobaptists and Credobaptists) believe that our children are holy [1Co 7:14].

Infant baptism is completely different than Baby dedication. You know better than to even try to use that.

 

[MB]

P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



EXTRA, EXTRA. Read all about it!!

Regardless of the efforts of professing Christian working in the name of Christ, if they are not born-again as His child, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They exercised their will while not in submission to His will.


[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'



Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvi

perseverance of the saints is works to keep being saved. No works no Salvation
MB[/QUOTE]
Lost sinnersd keep on resisting and rejecting Jesus to save them, but none who are one of the elect ever shall, as they know his voice and are one of his sheep![/QUOTE]
Unless you are a Jew you are not elect according to scripture.
MB

 

[George Antonios]

Paul and Jesus both affirmed that the natural state of sinners is the nature like satan himself, so well not submit/yield to God by itself!

Please try to be specific. You're giving general statements and verse lists.

No one, no one here, disagrees with the fact that we were by nature the children of wrath (Eph.2:3) and that the heart of man is naturally deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jer.17:9).

The issue at hand is not the naturally evil state of man. We all agree to that.
The issue at hand is whether that evil renders a lost man incapable of choosing Christ because has no free will as a lost man.
That's the issue. My post simply showed that depravity does not so extend to the spirit of man as to render it wholly incapable of choosing good over evil.
Please focus on this specific point rather than generalities on which we all agree.

 

[Reformed1689]

Salvation is eternal. There is no stopping eternal.

You know Calvninists believe that right?

 

[ivdavid]

Ok, how about this for refuting total depravity:

Reiterating, I borrow from both classic calvinism and classic arminianism because I believe both had the right intents towards glorifying God but slipped into error in human reasoning. I'd always attempt pruning away the errors to see unity over common grounds of truth. That said, why do you wish to introduce a new point of division that never existed. The only point of TULIP that both classic calvinism and arminianism agreed on was total depravity. Why seek to refute what has been already accepted by both sides?

The WILL is a function of the SPIRIT, not of the FLESH: "every one whom his SPIRIT made WILLING" (EX.35:21)

Is this a fair way of exegeting texts? The text shows that the Spirit makes men willing - but where does it say the flesh cannot will? And even conceptually, what of all the wicked willing evil - that definitely isn't from the Spirit, then is the conclusion that the wicked don't will anything at all? At any rate, even by your direct word searches in Scriptures, we come with
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

are you gonna make all that generation that did not persevere in the wilderness, born again? No.

Not born again, No. But definitely supernaturally worked upon by God in the giving of a new heart and mind - if you must, the Arminian concept of prevenient grace.

total depravity does not mean his spirit cannot choose righteousness or choose to believe God.

total depravity does mean exactly that in man born in the natural state. Wesley held to original sin and total depravity too. Think about it, prevenient grace was a necessity within the arminian framework sheerly because Arminianism held to total inability of the flesh without such grace.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

You have been waiting patiently and, although I am a Particular Baptists, I feel bad for you and would like to give it a shot ...



This verse sort of cuts both ways, does it not? I mean clearly it states that "Christ Jesus has made me his own", but that is not presented as the prime mover (the great causing force) in this scripture. Rather, the fact that "Christ Jesus has made me his own" is the MOTIVATION ("because") for what comes before. What comes before in that sentence is not rest in an assurance of a finished work, but "I press on to make it my own".

"I press on to make it my own" is a declaration of human effort and human will to obtain what has not already been obtained. Is that really 100% monergism?

So how is that?
Does it serve your needs?

I will address your post after I have a clearer understanding of your statements/questions.

I agree with this definition of monergism:
Monergism; noun; Theology. The doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

I need clarification on two points:
1) What is your understanding of: "I press on to make it my own"
2) Which letter of the acronym are you refuting?

Then, hopefully, I can address your question: Does it serve your needs?

Technically, I do not "need" to have TULIP refuted. What I "need" is to have a scriptural platform upon which it is refuted. Hopefully, we will determine whether or not such a platform can be constructed based on sound doctrine.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

"For I know that in me (that is, in my FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to WILL is PRESENT with ME" (Ro.7:18).

The WILL is a function of the SPIRIT, not of the FLESH: "every one whom his SPIRIT made WILLING" (EX.35:21)[/QUOTE]

Hopefully, you agree that Paul was born-again and therefore was alive in the spiritual sense. Therefore, he had a desire/will to do right.

[Rom 7:18 ESV] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

The natural man is in a state of spiritual death.

[Eph 2:1 ESV] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
[Eph 2:5 ESV] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
[Col 2:13 ESV] And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

No where does scripture attribute spiritual life to the will of spiritually dead souls.

 

[ivdavid]

What I "need" is to have a scriptural platform upon which it is refuted. Hopefully, we will determine whether or not such a platform can be constructed based on sound doctrine.

Earnest endeavour. I am neither calvinist nor arminian but i borrow from the core doctrines of both classic doctrinal systems. I agree with TULIP as such when applied to the elect alone - but since calvinism errs in predestined condemnation of the non-elect, it doesn't even consider how others might equally view the P in TULIP to not be guaranteed when it comes to the rest. The Hebrews falling away passages are the Scriptural basis for this. I'll simply link to the Single Predestination thread references for now and probably continue discussing here...