Biblical Chastening

[DHK]

Is this the part where you stop your ears? I'm not saying Jesus didn't pay it all. I'm just saying that apparently that 'all' doesn't include Jesus bearing your chastening for sin, because God does chasten us when we sin, does He not?

Your theology has been called by many a "Baptist Purgatory" theology, and for good reason. I used to be Catholic. I will say to you what I now say to them.
You don't really believe that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins.
Why?
Because you believe that you must pay a part of that penalty in purgatory (ME) purging yourself from sin. You are still paying the penalty. Jesus blood wasn't sufficient. If it was you would enter straight into the Kingdom. Your arguments are fruitless, for whatever way you cut it, you are denying the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
Chastisement applies only to this earth, this side of the rapture.

 

[James_Newman]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say all these brethren are saved. How do we get saved? It's by believing, not by giving diligence to do these things:

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It says if you do these things, 'an entrance shall be ministered unto you' into the kingdom. But the man that doesn't has 'forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.' I don't know what being purged from sins means if it doesn't mean saved.

 

[TCGreek]

Your theology has been called by many a "Baptist Purgatory" theology, and for good reason. I used to be Catholic. I will say to you what I now say to them.
You don't really believe that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins.
Why?
Because you believe that you must pay a part of that penalty in purgatory (ME) purging yourself from sin. You are still paying the penalty. Jesus blood wasn't sufficient. If it was you would enter straight into the Kingdom. Your arguments are fruitless, for whatever way you cut it, you are denying the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
Chastisement applies only to this earth, this side of the rapture.

Amen! As sober and succinct as they come!

 

[TCGreek]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say all these brethren are saved. How do we get saved? It's by believing, not by giving diligence to do these things:

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It says if you do these things, 'an entrance shall be ministered unto you' into the kingdom. But the man that doesn't has 'forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.' I don't know what being purged from sins means if it doesn't mean saved.

We need to be able to balance God's sovereignty in salvation and our responsibility in both salvation and sanctification.

 

[James_Newman]

Your theology has been called by many a "Baptist Purgatory" theology, and for good reason. I used to be Catholic. I will say to you what I now say to them.
You don't really believe that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins.
Why?
Because you believe that you must pay a part of that penalty in purgatory (ME) purging yourself from sin. You are still paying the penalty. Jesus blood wasn't sufficient. If it was you would enter straight into the Kingdom. Your arguments are fruitless, for whatever way you cut it, you are denying the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
Chastisement applies only to this earth, this side of the rapture.

Apples and oranges, brother. There is much wrong with Catholicism in general, and the doctrine of purgatory in particular. I am not denying the sufficiency of the blood by saying Christ will chasten disobedient believers. If you believe chastening can only occur in this life, all I ask is for a scripture reference.

 

[James_Newman]

We need to be able to balance God's sovereignty in salvation and our responsibility in both salvation and sanctification.

This is catholic. There is no 'our responsibility' in salvation. Do you see this DHK?

 

[TCGreek]

This is catholic. There is no 'our responsibility' in salvation. Do you see this DHK?

Salvation is by grace through faith; this faith we must exercise. What about this is catholic? If by catholic you mean universally what everyone must do, then I grant that. But if you mean Catholicism, then you have failed to understand Eph.2:8

 

[charles_creech78]

This is catholic. There is no 'our responsibility' in salvation. Do you see this DHK?

I bet you believe being born again means you need to go back into your moms belly:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[DHK]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say all these brethren are saved. How do we get saved? It's by believing, not by giving diligence to do these things:

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It says if you do these things, 'an entrance shall be ministered unto you' into the kingdom. But the man that doesn't has 'forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.' I don't know what being purged from sins means if it doesn't mean saved.

There are many such comparisons in the Bible.
Paul contrasts the works of the flesh to the fruit of the Spirit in Gal.5.
There is a contrast in Eph.2:8-10: salvation by faith; created unto works.
There is a contrast in James 2, if you understand the chapter properly.
Jesus makes the same contrast in John 15.

All this Scripture is essentially saying the same thing.
The fruit mentioned in 2Peter are the qualities of a believer. An unbeliever has no such fruit. All of the above passages suggest the same thing. The fruit of the Spirit is found only among beleivers. This is what Peter is basically listing--the qualities of a believer.
Take the contrary statement: If you don't continue in these things--then obviously you are not a believer. A believer has a changed life. He has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. His life is evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said that he was the vine and we are the branches. What does a branch do--bear fruit. That is all that this passage is saying. It is not a passage commanding us to do works unto salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

Salvation is by grace through faith; this faith we must exercise. What about this is catholic? If by catholic you mean universally what everyone must do, then I grant that. But if you mean Catholicism, then you have failed to understand Eph.2:8

You believe we must work to be saved, you only disagree with the Catholics on what those works are.

 

[James_Newman]

There are many such comparisons in the Bible.
Paul contrasts the works of the flesh to the fruit of the Spirit in Gal.5.
There is a contrast in Eph.2:8-10: salvation by faith; created unto works.
There is a contrast in James 2, if you understand the chapter properly.
Jesus makes the same contrast in John 15.

All this Scripture is essentially saying the same thing.
The fruit mentioned in 2Peter are the qualities of a believer. An unbeliever has no such fruit. All of the above passages suggest the same thing. The fruit of the Spirit is found only among beleivers. This is what Peter is basically listing--the qualities of a believer.
Take the contrary statement: If you don't continue in these things--then obviously you are not a believer. A believer has a changed life. He has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. His life is evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said that he was the vine and we are the branches. What does a branch do--bear fruit. That is all that this passage is saying. It is not a passage commanding us to do works unto salvation.

Jesus says that a branch that doesn't bring forth fruit is cast forth and burned. Why do we say it wasn't really a branch?

 

[DHK]

Jesus says that a branch that doesn't bring forth fruit is cast forth and burned. Why do we say it wasn't really a branch?

Somethng that has never had life, was never alive in the first place could never be likened to a Christian.

 

[James_Newman]

Somethng that has never had life, was never alive in the first place could never be likened to a Christian.

Jesus didn't say the branches were dead. How does a dead branch become grafted into the vine in the first place. Christ came upon a fig tree that had no fruit, but the tree wasn't dead until after Christ cursed it. We are grafted into the vine. If we bring forth fruit, well. If not, not well.

 

[TCGreek]

You believe we must work to be saved, you only disagree with the Catholics on what those works are.

1. James, what are you fishing for? If you want to find Catholicism in my comments you can find them.

2. But you know better than that. You know quite well what I believe. Are these the tactics that you are willing to resort to?

 

[DHK]

Jesus didn't say the branches were dead. How does a dead branch become grafted into the vine in the first place. Christ came upon a fig tree that had no fruit, but the tree wasn't dead until after Christ cursed it. We are grafted into the vine. If we bring forth fruit, well. If not, not well.

Stick to one parable at a time. I was talking about John 15 which was a vine (presumably grape), and Jesus never cursed it. One passage at a time.

 

[James_Newman]

1. James, what are you fishing for? If you want to find Catholicism in my comments you can find them.

2. But you know better than that. You know quite well what I believe. Are these the tactics that you are willing to resort to?

Salvation is by grace through faith; this faith we must exercise.

I believe your grace is nearly identical to the Catholic grace, which is faith plus works.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.[/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.[/FONT]

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[James_Newman]

Stick to one parable at a time. I was talking about John 15 which was a vine (presumably grape), and Jesus never cursed it. One passage at a time.

Sure, in what sense do you believe unbelievers to be grafted into the vine?

 

[Brother Bob]

It is very simple Bob. I will tell you again.
The blood of Christ at the cross covers all my sin: past present and future. That is why I can never lose my salvation, even (God forbid) if I should be caught in the act of adultery while dying.
To say that God does not know what sins I commit after I am saved is to take away from God's omniscience. Are we going to be so literal in the phrase "he remembers no more" as to mean that God suddenly gets Alzheimers!! Use some common sense here Bob. It is a figure of speech, just like we use "forgive and forget," "bury the hatchet," "its water under the bridge," etc. They all mean approximately the same thing. Don't take away from God's omniscience. He knows all things. He remembers them no more in respect to our salvation. He will never put them against our salvation. They are nailed to the cross (another figurative expression). As far as our salvation is concerned God will never, never bring the matter of our sins, (past, present, and future) up again. There is therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.

But after we are saved we still have the old nature and we still sin. That sin must be confessed to the Lord (not in the matter of salvation), but in respect to our fellowship with God. If we want to have that sweet unbroken fellowship with God, then we must bring up that sin matter on a daily basis and confess it to God. It is not a matter of salvation. It is a matter of fellowship with God.
__________________
DHK

Isa 1:18¶Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Your belief don't make a bit of sense as far as the remembering part. You now are trying to find a way out of the remembering part by saying "its a figure of speech" when He said they be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.

Advocate means to plead your case, so Jesus when you sin, has to plead your case to God, and God forgives you because Jesus pleaded for you. So, you receive forgiveness for each sin you commit after salvation, when it is committed. :BangHead: Your theology turns out to be nothing but "a ticket to sin". It is absolutely insane to say the world commits adultery and they are "hell bound" but if the saved commit adultery "it is covered at the cross".

 

[TCGreek]

I believe your grace is nearly identical to the Catholic grace, which is faith plus works.

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My grace is nothing to the Catholics. Eph 2:8, 9 is what I believe. I don't know what you are looking for.

 

[James_Newman]

My grace is nothing to the Catholics. Eph 2:8, 9 is what I believe. I don't know what you are looking for.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I didn't see anything in there about exercising faith.