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Calvinism and Arminianism foreknowledge compared with respect to time

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1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Derf said:
This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

I encourage disagreement with my suppositions, but please give me a reason and a replacement supposition for each one you oppose.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.
2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates. Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign. But it comes at a price. Here's why:

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
Derf
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Author of sin?

Gordon Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Would you please explain what that has to do with my contention that those verses say nothing about time being created?

Here’s another example. Truth. Is truth created? Or is truth a concept that is applied to statements or events? If “truth” was created, then before truth existed, did God know what was true about Himself? Of course He has always known the truth about Himself, and He wasn’t created. So truth is uncreated, yet God is God of truth, just as Satan is the father of lies.

If time is a concept, I’d suggest of sequence, then God is more powerful than time, in that He controls sequential events, including those events He initiates. And in fact God acts in sequence: He will one day destroy the earth, but He had to create the earth first, because it’s hard to destroy something that doesn’t exist. Even God can’t destroy something He hasn’t yet created.
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So are you making the argument truth does not need God to be true?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
Author of sin?

Gordon Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
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Mural Law reflects the nature of God though!
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
37818 said:
So are you making the argument truth does not need God to be true?
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Is that a problem? For instance, is 2+2=4 a true statement in an atheist universe, assuming one could exist? Of course it is. Non moral concepts don’t require a moral arbiter to be true.

Another way to look at it is to ask, now back within a Christian universe, is a murderer guilty without a trial? Of course he is, but he might not be punished justly.
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
1689Dave said:
Author of sin?

Gordon Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
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Gordon Clark just made God the author of sin in that statement. He’s a consistent Calvinist, but he’s not consistent with most Calvinistic confessions, which are internally inconsistent on this point. I applaud him for his consistency, while I reject his theology.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Is that a problem? For instance, is 2+2=4 a true statement in an atheist universe, assuming one could exist? Of course it is. Non moral concepts don’t require a moral arbiter to be true.

Another way to look at it is to ask, now back within a Christian universe, is a murderer guilty without a trial? Of course he is, but he might not be punished justly.
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Oh, there is a problem. The denial of the only true God. The denial that God is God. God Himself is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self eveident truths are self evident. God is the self existent one in which all caused reality has its existence. The true meaning of God's Name of the Hebrew. Exodous 3:14-15. Hear the Proverb, Proverbs 21:30, "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." The Apostle Paul, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ." That is everyone and also everything. see Colossians 1:16-17. John 1:3
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
37818 said:
Oh, there is a problem. The denial of the only true God. The denial that God is God. God Himself is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self eveident truths are self evident. God is the self existent one in which all caused reality has its existence. The true meaning of God's Name of the Hebrew. Exodous 3:14-15. Hear the Proverb, Proverbs 21:30, "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." The Apostle Paul, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ." That is everyone and also everything. see Colossians 1:16-17. John 1:3
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I assume this rather substantial red herring is because you don’t have any answer to my original question??
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Gordon Clark just made God the author of sin in that statement. He’s a consistent Calvinist, but he’s not consistent with most Calvinistic confessions, which are internally inconsistent on this point. I applaud him for his consistency, while I reject his theology.
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So how do you answer the problem of evil?
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
God upholds His Moral law!
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The Ten Commandments tell bad people to do nothing. Don't steal, murder, etc. How can that be a challenge to good people? Moral law would force you to love others as your self which none can do but Christ.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
The Ten Commandments tell bad people to do nothing. Don't steal, murder, etc. How can that be a challenge to good people? Moral law would force you to love others as your self which none can do but Christ.
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The Moral Law of God shows to us His perfection!
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
1689Dave said:
So how do you answer the problem of evil?
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That’s a different thread topic, and “evil” is too broad: Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
But in general, sin is something other entities do against God’s will. God neither tempts nor forces anyone to commit sin. Clark is incorrect.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
That’s a different thread topic, and “evil” is too broad: Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
But in general, sin is something other entities do against God’s will. God neither tempts nor forces anyone to commit sin. Clark is incorrect.
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Everything is God's will or he's not God.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Then “sin” doesn’t exist, and there’s nothing we need to be saved from. Why would God’s son have to die to save us from doing God’s will?
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God created sin and sinner alike. And he spared those he chose in Christ who bore their penalty the others still must bear.
 
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