• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Calvinist Confusion

Status
Not open for further replies.

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Again, and I'm sure I posted this somewhere...

I'm not sure what a "Calvinist" is, since I've never run across anyone who adheres strictly to the teachings of John Calvin.
I do know people, and even whole churches, that adhere strictly to the teachings of John Wesley, and they're called "Wesleyans" and "Methodists".

But, since people would label me as such, this is the reason I am saved:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
" ( Ephesians 1:3-6 )
Originally "Calvinism" was used by Lutherans to refer to Calvin's teaching regarding Communion. I believe the term should refer to doctrine that distinguished Calvin's denomination from other Reformed churches and doctrines of that trajectory (Calvin's view of communion; Penal Substitution Theory; the Five Points of Calvinism; the nature of Christ's suffering; etc.). Obviously things spread out and change (for example, Dispensationalism was at first popular only among Calvinists). I guess I'd say the real Calvinists today are Presbyterians.

Around here a "Calvinist" is typically someone who affirms a certain number of the points of Calvinism (or the "Doctrines of Grace"). It's usually restricted to soteriology and the Calvinistic answer to the five articles. Personally I do not see how one can be anything but a five point Calvinist (the logic is clearest when seen through the whole defense).

I don't like that definition because I affirm all five points but am definitely not a Calvinist.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Ask the Free-will guy. Because God revealed Himself in a meaningful way and he chose to repent and believe. What did he have to do? The free-will guy actually had to choose to count it all loss and follow God.

I agree.
The "free will guy" tells it from his perspective.
Then God's word comes along, and tells him ( that "free will guy", that used to be me ) why He chose to repent and believe.

Yes, from my perspective, I chose to count it all loss and follow God...but again, God's word comes along, and tells me why I chose to follow Jesus Christ.
Out of left field, I heard the word of God that described my situation before Him, as a helpless sinner, and believed it.
No choice was actually required.

I simply believed.:)

Why did I believe?
God's word tells me that I believed because I was chosen by Him ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and given the gift of belief ( Philippians 1:29 ).
 
Last edited:

Dave G

Well-Known Member
I don't like that definition because I affirm all five points but am definitely not a Calvinist.

So...
Here's what I've gotten so far being on this forum:

To most "non-Calvinists", anyone who believes and teaches the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is labeled as a "Calvinist".
Unless of course you're a "non-Calvinist" who believes in the "Doctrines of Grace", and then you will get labeled as a "Calvinist" by the other "non-Calvinists".

Am I getting all of this right?:Sneaky
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
So...
Here's what I've gotten so far being on this forum:

To most "non-Calvinists", anyone who believes and teaches the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is labeled as a "Calvinist".
Unless of course you're a "non-Calvinist" who believes in the "Doctrines of Grace", and then you will get labeled as a "Calvinist" by the other "non-Calvinists".

Am I getting all of this right?:Sneaky
Yep.

Around here you are kinda lumped into one of two camps (Calvinism and Arminianism).

Unless you are a non-Calvinist who can affirm five points (like me). Then you're just a regular old fashioned heretic. :Laugh
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I see a marked difference between the two styles of preaching...the traditional way, and the biblical way.

And there is no difference between Calvinist preachers to the masses and Non-Cal preachers to the masses. This is the issue. If a Calvinist really believes a person cannot choose Christ then stop preaching as MacArthur does begging the sinner to believe on Christ. Just preach what you believe! I have no problem with that. I don;t believe what you believe, but I do believe you should preach what you believe and not go about preaching "believe" when you believe it is impossible to believe unless God draws you.

So preach it like you believe Calvinism! Say to your audience of sinners. "Some of you here today, maybe even all of you here today, may be drawn by God to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I am about to preach. Most likely God is not going to save you all. Some here God may do a work in your heart and save you. Others here God may pass over you and leave you for condemnation to hell. So here we go, let me begin with John 3:16, God so loved the world...........well, I will explain that later to those who God selects today to be saved........I know it say world, but, well, we will get to that later after you get learned better.......
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A person gets put "in Christ" from before the foundation of the world...that is what is written ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
God has chosen believers "in Christ" before the foundation of the world.
That's how a person gets "in Christ".

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
..................And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
What I was claiming is that the Calvinist does not know why God chose him and chalks that up to "mystery".
The very quote you posted proves exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The very quote you posted proves exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
What I am claiming is that Calvinists believe God elected people based on His own will and the reason why one person is saved and another is not saved remains a mystery known only to God Himself. The person "elected" has not merited in any way his own salvation. Calvinism does not place man as contributing to his own salvation because that faith itself is of God.

Obviously you deny this assertion, but when I read the quoted texts I can't get why or how you do so. I guess that's another "mystery".

Maybe, if you will, you can explain for us the mind of God since it is not a "mystery" to you why God elected you and did not elect other people.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The very quote you posted proves exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
Ok.....I know I'm going to regret it, but I'll ask anyway (this is what I was talking about earlier....I wouldn't be so opposed to Calvinism if it wasn't for the Calvinists :Laugh ).

God, for His own purposes and according to His Perfect Will, elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin, justly condemned for their sin.
The "why" of that is a mystery known only to God. His ways are higher than our ways. He shows mercy on whom He will show mercy.
How does your statement prove exactly the opposite of the claim that Calvinists believe the reason God elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin is a mystery?????
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ok.....I know I'm going to regret it, but I'll ask anyway (this is what I was talking about earlier....I wouldn't be so opposed to Calvinism if it wasn't for the Calvinists :Laugh ).


How does your statement prove exactly the opposite of the claim that Calvinists believe the reason God elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin is a mystery?????

Its their go to answer on anything they cannt defend
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Its their go to answer on anything they cannt defend
My main issue with Calvinists is how many have proven themselves to be absolutely horrible people. They claim to hold the "truth" but many seem (in my experience) to be almost as horrible as me. :Unsure

A few are so dedicated to their "camp" they will invent disagreements to gather around (as I believe @TCassidy 's post proves). Some absolutely love an echo chamber but become combative when faced with Christians who may not completely agree with their ideas.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John 3 verse 16.

Can't be any simpler than that.
Hello Cavell, I am a simple basic Christian who also loves Jn.3:16....so I am not sure what you mean by posting this fine verse.
. 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Its their go to answer on anything they cannt defend
Not really. It is easily defended. God does His will for His own glory.

When Israel was chosen from among the nations....God gave some explanation;
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

It is not spoken of as a mystery.
jer313 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Jew and gentile on equal footing was previously a mystery,
Eph3
Ephesians 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


and of course this:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am a non-Cal. My answer is that's God's business. It's above our paygrade. The "why" is a mystery known only to God. At the same time, it is because the neighbor doesn't believe.
Why did you believe and not Him?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
How does your statement prove exactly the opposite of the claim that Calvinists believe the reason God elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin is a mystery?
It's not a mystery because God told us the reason He elects men to salvation. "According to the good pleasure of His will." Romans 9:15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yep.

Around here you are kinda lumped into one of two camps (Calvinism and Arminianism).

Unless you are a non-Calvinist who can affirm five points (like me). Then you're just a regular old fashioned heretic. :Laugh
So you would have to be Calvinist at least in Sotierology, if you really do affirm the 5 points of Grace!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top