Can a 5 Point Calvinist Be A Baptist Fundamentalist?

[Reformed1689]

I am a Baptist Fundamentalist and I say no.

What do the Baptist Fundamentalists who post here say, and why?

It depends, what do you mean when you say fundamentalist?

 

[robycop3]

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

As discussed in many threads before, roby,
I see the "us-ward" as being the "beloved" spoken of in verse 8, and the "any" and "all" as also describing the "us-ward" and "beloved", whom the Lord is not willing that any of should perish, but that all of should come to repentance due to His love for them...as seen in Romans 8:31-39, Ephesians 2:1-10, and many other places in His word.

To me, that one verse, in context, confirms the "U" in "TULIP" and serves to demonstrate why I am no longer an IFB ( what many nowadays seem to call an "Independent Baptist" )...
Because few of the ones that I know ( past and present ) even see it that way.
With that stated and used as one objective reason why I left that movement,
I will go back to the sidelines, as I have no desire to participate in a debate of any kind.

My reason for replying to this thread is and was as a former IFB...
and while I commend them for their stand on certain doctrines, practices and what they see as fundamentals, I personally see more being taught in the Scriptures than they do, and it was because of those differences that I reluctantly left.

If anyone has any questions for me, I invite them to start a conversation privately.

I disagree with calvinism myself, and as for "us-ward", it's found in that verse in the KJV, which I don't use. I take "us" as being whoever read Peter's letter at the time, as well as us now, as God preserved that letter for us.

BTW, our church actually IS independent, not belonging to any associations or groups, even though we work with & correspond with other congregations. We call ourselves "Baptist", as we agree with almost Baptist doctrines, long as they're in Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Our IFB church doesn't believe ANY man-made doctrines of faith/worship, & that includes calvinism.
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
This verse sinks most calvinist points.

Your misunderstanding of that verse sinks nothing,lol

 

[robycop3]

Your misunderstanding of that verse sinks nothing,lol

No misunderstanding. The verse is plain as the nose on your face.

 

[JD731]

Well, that was covered in post 17.

Post #17 did not deal with the Calvinist fundamental of pre-creation election, where all the choices were made and where faith originated and where it resides.

What teaching, or teachings from the scriptures is absolutely necessary for salvation to occur in the heart of the sinner? Answer that and you have defined your fundamentals of the faith. Calvinists generally teaches that God has chosen whom he will save before the creation of the world and that he will not save anyone else. That teaching is foundational to their theology.

The fact is that God did not even choose who would be born. That choice is made by two people, usually, and is a matter of natural laws, which, BTW, can be manipulated to reach a desired outcome. Calvinists knows this and they have 1.6 children like non-Calvinists, which tells me they are not depending on the sovereignty of God in all cases and are practicing birth control. This confirms my point.

IFB"s have a whole different view of God than do Calvinists. If one is a biblical fundamentalist, then the other is not.

 

[JD731]

It depends, what do you mean when you say fundamentalist?

Well, it is not whether or not you believe the gap theory. The fundamental doctrines of the bible are those teachings that must be believed in order to pass from death unto life. The NT calls those doctrines, "the doctrine of Christ." Sometimes they are abbreviated and called "the faith." They are one and the same. There are more than one and a sinner must embrace all of them to be saved. Quickly, two examples.

2 Jn 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The fundamentals then is the doctrines concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ. He is the savior.

 

[JD731]

As a former IFB, I say, "no".

To me, those who hold to what is commonly called "Calvinism" believe and teach more than just a set of "fundamentals"...
To clarify, something along the lines of, "what is the absolute minimum that can be held to, and be in the faith / saved" is what I was taught growing up in IFB circles from 1978 and continued until 2005 or so when I left.

They were often referred to as "the fundamentals of the faith".

I heard that subject being preached and taught from pulpits the entire time that I was attending those churches in my area, and I was in them for some 28 years, give or take.

I agree, and for the reasons I've stated above.

Do you think one can believe as do the Watchtower society that Jesus Christ is not God manifest in the flesh and be a saved person. If your answer is no, then you have identified a fundamental of the Christian faith. Christianity will not work without this doctrine.

Can two persons disagree that God chose who will be saved in pre-creation eternity and both still be saved? If your answer is yes, then you have identified a doctrine that is not fundamental to the Christian faith.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The matter is a Calvinist can easily be a small f fundamentalist. After all, J.G. Machen was one. However, a Fundamentalist may or may not be a Calvinist. The split came in the early 1800s on the question of missions especially foreign.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well, it is not whether or not you believe the gap theory. The fundamental doctrines of the bible are those teachings that must be believed in order to pass from death unto life. The NT calls those doctrines, "the doctrine of Christ." Sometimes they are abbreviated and called "the faith." They are one and the same. There are more than one and a sinner must embrace all of them to be saved. Quickly, two examples.

2 Jn 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The fundamentals then is the doctrines concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ. He is the savior.

Ok so again specifically what do you call fundamentalist and why can a Calvinist not be one?

 

[JD731]

Can a 5 Point Calvinist be a Fundamentalist Baptist? Of course anyone can profess to be this or that, as integrity is not a given. So the question assumes a valid agreement of doctrines. However, the Fundamentalist doctrines are not given. Here is one list from the internet:

Summarized, these points were: (1) the inerrancy of Scripture, (2) the Virgin Birth of Christ, (3) his substitutionary atonement, (4) his bodily resurrection, and (5) the authenticity of the miracles.​

Certainly a Calvinist agrees with Biblical inerrancy, the Virgin Birth, His bodily resurrection, and the authenticity of the biblical miracles. So, using this list, only the undefined "his substitutionary atonement" might be a stumbling block if integrity is assumed.
Penal Substitution Atonement is a Trojan horse for "Limited Atonement" (Christ only died for the elect - the Calvinist view) but since whether Christ died as a ransom for all or a ransom for some is not stated, no conclusion can be reached.

There are other lists of 5 such as:

1) The inerrancy of Scripture meaning Scripture is without error.
2) The virgin birth of Christ.
3) The substitutionary atonement of Christ.
4) Christ’s bodily resurrection.
5) Christ’s bodily return to earth in the second coming.​

In this second list, the miracle item is replaced with Christ's bodily return.

IFB's believe that salvation is a NT doctrine that depends on the doctrine of a tried and perfect substitute who paid the penalty for our sins, which is death, and that he was buried and rose again from the dead and gives his life as a gift, which is the omnipresent Spirit who indwelt him, to every repentant sinner who will receive him to indwell them , making them a child of God.
The T.U.L.I.P. has nothing to do with this. Justification by faith is an OT doctrine. Salvation by faith is a NT doctrine. Justified men of the OT are saved by the sacrifice of the NT in Christ's blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

No misunderstanding. The verse is plain as the nose on your face.

It really is. Not sure how you consistently miss it. I have an idea however

 

[JD731]

Ok so again specifically what do you call fundamentalist and why can a Calvinist not be one?

I can be no more specific than to quote the scriptures concerning the doctrine of Christ, the faith. The scriptures say, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Well, what does that mean? It means that one must believe on what the bible teaches about Jesus Christ and his work on behalf of sinners.

This is the reason Calvinists cannot be fundamentalists like IFB's.. They do not believe on the record the scriptures gives of Jesus Christ and, in fact, substitute a different set of fundamentals of the faith for the true ones. Their fundamentals have very little to do with Jesus Christ and his cross and God and the Holy Spirit must do many things for the sinner before Jesus Christ ever enters the conversation.It is not even Jesus Christ of the bible who saves the sinner in Calvinism. It is the Spirit of God who does a work of regeneration first and then it is God the Father who gifts him with faith and then finally Jesus does something for him.

 

[AustinC]

IFB's believe that salvation is a NT doctrine that depends on the doctrine of a tried and perfect substitute who paid the penalty for our sins, which is death, and that he was buried and rose again from the dead and gives his life as a gift, which is the omnipresent Spirit who indwelt him, to every repentant sinner who will receive him to indwell them , making them a child of God.
The T.U.L.I.P. has nothing to do with this. Justification by faith is an OT doctrine. Salvation by faith is a NT doctrine. Justified men of the OT are saved by the sacrifice of the NT in Christ's blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Are you aware that Paul takes 11 chapters in his letter to the Romans to teach both Jew and Gentile how they are justified by faith?
To claim justification by faith is only old testament is to ultimately ignore its teaching in the new testament.

Moreso, salvation by faith is not taught in the Bible, OT or NT. It's always been salvation by grace.

 

[37818]

Post #17 did not deal with the Calvinist fundamental of pre-creation election, . . .

Two of the issues.

Post 17 is on the fundamentals of fundamentalism. You have not shown to be a Calvinist one must deny them.

The Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit teaches a pre-creation of man election, Ephesians 1:4, ". . . as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ."

You rant and do not make good argument.

 

[JD731]

What do you mean? Ephesians 1:4, ". . . as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." <and context>

You must define the "us" in the context of the theme of the letter to the Ephesians. The theme of the letter is for the purpose of making a mystery known. This mystery had been hidden from, not before, the foundation of the world. The short title of this mystery is "the mystery of Christ" and is explained in detail in this letter and is hidden in God and is now revealed by a special apostle that is raised up by God to reveal all other mysteries that are associated with this one. There are 6 others.

My purpose here is to talk about the fundamentals of the faith, not the mystery of Christ but if you can allow the context throughout the letter to identify the " us" and the "you"then everything will begin to come into focus for you.

 

[JD731]

Two of the issues.

Post 17 is on the fundamentals of fundamentalism. You have not shown to be a Calvinist one must deny them.

The 5 points of Calvinism denies them as they are taught by IFB's.

The Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit teaches a pre-creation of man election, Ephesians 1:4, ". . . as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ."

No it doesn't. You read that into the context. The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ would be the one man who could keep the whole law perfectly and offer himself as the substitute for all men. God would accept him and him only as righteous. However, that does not mean that all men will be forgiven because Jesus offered himself. The safety from the wrath of God against sinners is "in" Jesus Christ. That is, in his body.

We first learn of this in John 17 at the evening of the arrest of Jesus Christ. a whole new thing is about to begin with Jesus leaving this world but leaving the believers who are his in it. He prayed words such as these;

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

There it is. Jesus Christ alone was known before the foundation of the world. The fact that God loves Jesus Christ and believers in his death and resurrection are put in him and he is in them assures us that God loves us because we are one with him and since he and the Father are one, we are one with the Father. Ephesians, written in AD 60, 20 years after the inclusion of gentiles, is the explanation of how God is making the gentiles and the Jews one with each other in Christ.

You rant and do not make good argument.

It is my desire to glorify my savior, Jesus Christ, and lift him up and give him the preeminence. I pray he is pleased with my efforts. I do love him.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am a Baptist Fundamentalist and I say no.

What do the Baptist Fundamentalists who post here say, and why?

The original fundamentalists stood firm against basic apostasy from people in the mission fields not abiding in the deity of Christ.
The doctrines of grace were not the issue.
A fundamental understanding of scripture should include the doctrines of grace.
While they stood firm against apostasy on some issues, they were led off course in other directions.

 

[37818]

The 5 points of Calvinism denies them as they are taught by IFB's.

Saying this does not make it so.

No it doesn't. You read that into the context.

Again, saying this does not make it so.

Ephesians 1:3-6, ". . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. . . ."

Stop with your accusations. Cite precisely what is being said that is in error and give the Scripture that corrects it.

 

[37818]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does:
Ephesians 1:4, ". . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that . . . ."

 

[Iconoclast]

Each generation of believers has to remain stedfast against attacks from outside the camp.
If we are out in public and a conversation takes place with unsaved people,the main issues are going to be the authority of scripture, sin question,The deity of Chr
ist,,the accomplished redemption by means of the cross,the resurrection and judgment to come.
if an evangelical joins in, any differences need to be set aside and the discussion should revolve around helping the unsaved person hear a clear answer to the sin question.