Can a 5 Point Calvinist Be A Baptist Fundamentalist?

[Reformed1689]

I can be no more specific than to quote the scriptures concerning the doctrine of Christ, the faith. The scriptures say, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Well, what does that mean? It means that one must believe on what the bible teaches about Jesus Christ and his work on behalf of sinners.

This is the reason Calvinists cannot be fundamentalists like IFB's.. They do not believe on the record the scriptures gives of Jesus Christ and, in fact, substitute a different set of fundamentals of the faith for the true ones. Their fundamentals have very little to do with Jesus Christ and his cross and God and the Holy Spirit must do many things for the sinner before Jesus Christ ever enters the conversation.It is not even Jesus Christ of the bible who saves the sinner in Calvinism. It is the Spirit of God who does a work of regeneration first and then it is God the Father who gifts him with faith and then finally Jesus does something for him.

As I thought, you don't actually know Calvinism. Instead this is nothing but a false defamatory smear job.

 

[Reformed1689]

IFB's believe that salvation is a NT doctrine that depends on the doctrine of a tried and perfect substitute who paid the penalty for our sins, which is death, and that he was buried and rose again from the dead and gives his life as a gift, which is the omnipresent Spirit who indwelt him, to every repentant sinner who will receive him to indwell them , making them a child of God.
The T.U.L.I.P. has nothing to do with this. Justification by faith is an OT doctrine. Salvation by faith is a NT doctrine. Justified men of the OT are saved by the sacrifice of the NT in Christ's blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

I don't think you have read the whole NT then.

 

[robycop3]

It really is. Not sure how you consistently miss it. I have an idea however

Nupe! You think I misunderstand because I reject the calvinist myth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Nupe! You think I misunderstand because I reject the calvinist myth.

Actually you do misread the verse out of context. It does not sink Calvinism but supports it.

 

[Van]

IFB's believe that salvation is a NT doctrine that depends on the doctrine of a tried and perfect substitute who paid the penalty for our sins, which is death, and that he was buried and rose again from the dead and gives his life as a gift, which is the omnipresent Spirit who indwelt him, to every repentant sinner who will receive him to indwell them , making them a child of God.
The T.U.L.I.P. has nothing to do with this. Justification by faith is an OT doctrine. Salvation by faith is a NT doctrine. Justified men of the OT are saved by the sacrifice of the NT in Christ's blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Do Independent Fundamentalist Baptists believe Christ died for all humanity or only for the elect. Pretty simple question. Why not answer it? Calvinists say they believe Christ died only for the elect and thus 2 Peter 2:1 is said not to mean what it says. Since those who believe the literal meaning of scripture would not allow scripture nullification, the only way a 5 pointer could join would be by stealth.

 

[robycop3]

Actually you do misread the verse out of context. It does not sink Calvinism but supports it.

Not at all. It says salvation is open to ALL.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not at all. It says salvation is open to ALL.

Only if read out of context.

 

[JD731]

Are you aware that Paul takes 11 chapters in his letter to the Romans to teach both Jew and Gentile how they are justified by faith?
To claim justification by faith is only old testament is to ultimately ignore its teaching in the new testament.

Moreso, salvation by faith is not taught in the Bible, OT or NT. It's always been salvation by grace.

It is dishonest to set up a straw man and argue against him. I did not say justification by faith is only an OT doctrine, nor would I say it, because it is not true. I spelled out what I meant and it was clear.

God justifies the sinner because the judge is the only one who can do it. He does not have to do it if there is guilt involved and the judge says all have sinned. However, the judge has said in the OT that he would justify sinners for believing what he said to them and impute their faith in him for righteousness. So then, justification is by faith just like the Judge says. In the NT the judge has devised a way that a guilty man could have someone else pay his penalty that the Judge has prescribed for sinners, which is death, and the sinner would then have no guilt and would have perfect righteousness before the Judge and could go free. The Judge did not have to accept the sacrifice but it was the Judge who provided the sacrifice, his own Son. In doing this, the Judge could also grant forgiveness of sin for the justified believers of the OT.

Here are two passages that deals with the OT believers in what God said to them. Read them and consider them.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Therefore it is the obedience of Christ to God and his shed blood in both testaments that saves sinners and the principle for the application of that blood is the same in both testaments. It is FAITH in what God says. As sure as the blood was applied on the doorposts of the Israelites in Egypt on the first Passover as a type of faith in what God said to do to be saved from the death angel, one must obey God and apply the blood of Christ by faith. Hyssop, that which was provided by the man, is a picture of faith. He applied the blood with it.
The theology of justification is given in Rom 3. Then God gives us three practical illustrations of this justification by faith doctrine in Rom 4. The categories are in times.

1) Abraham - Before the Law of Moses
2) David during the law of Moses
3) Believers after the law of Moses and after the cross.

The point of this is to show that God's method of dealing with men may change, the means of justification of sinners is constant. It is by faith in what he says to sinners.

We know what he said to Abraham and how he responded. We know what he said to David and how he responded. But what does he say to us today? Here it is.

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he (God) had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

One cannot be justified by believing what Abraham or David believed by which they were justified. We must believe in Jesus Christ who died for us and was buried and rose again. We must believe what God says about it. What does he say? Here it is;

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see how God justifies and reckons the believer in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be righteous and without guilt that can condemn him?

Back to Rom 4. Read this;

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (GOD) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

We must believe the record that God has given of his Son in order to be saved from the penalty of sin. This is the fundamentals of the faith , and your list of fundamentals as a Calvinist are not included.

Ponder these things.

 

[robycop3]

Only if read out of context.

Context is pretty plain. God told Peter He was not willing that any should perish. He wanted ALL to come to repentance. Now, who does "all" leave out? He didn't say "All except..."; He simply said "all" !

 

[AustinC]

Context is pretty plain. God told Peter He was not willing that any should perish. He wanted ALL to come to repentance. Now, who does "all" leave out? He didn't say "All except..."; He simply said "all" !

Oye vay! Start at 2 Peter 2:17 and go to 3:13. The verse actually destroys your assertion and proves it false. Just read it.

2 Peter 2:17-22 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
2 Peter 3:1-13 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[AustinC]

It is dishonest to set up a straw man and argue against him. I did not say justification by faith is only an OT doctrine, nor would I say it, because it is not true. I spelled out what I meant and it was clear.

God justifies the sinner because the judge is the only one who can do it. He does not have to do it if there is guilt involved and the judge says all have sinned. However, the judge has said in the OT that he would justify sinners for believing what he said to them and impute their faith in him for righteousness. So then, justification is by faith just like the Judge says. In the NT the judge has devised a way that a guilty man could have someone else pay his penalty that the Judge has prescribed for sinners, which is death, and the sinner would then have no guilt and would have perfect righteousness before the Judge and could go free. The Judge did not have to accept the sacrifice but it was the Judge who provided the sacrifice, his own Son. In doing this, the Judge could also grant forgiveness of sin for the justified believers of the OT.

Here are two passages that deals with the OT believers in what God said to them. Read them and consider them.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Therefore it is the obedience of Christ to God and his shed blood in both testaments that saves sinners and the principle for the application of that blood is the same in both testaments. It is FAITH in what God says. As sure as the blood was applied on the doorposts of the Israelites in Egypt on the first Passover as a type of faith in what God said to do to be saved from the death angel, one must obey God and apply the blood of Christ by faith. Hyssop, that which was provided by the man, is a picture of faith. He applied the blood with it.
The theology of justification is given in Rom 3. Then God gives us three practical illustrations of this justification by faith doctrine in Rom 4. The categories are in times.

1) Abraham - Before the Law of Moses
2) David during the law of Moses
3) Believers after the law of Moses and after the cross.

The point of this is to show that God's method of dealing with men may change, the means of justification of sinners is constant. It is by faith in what he says to sinners.

We know what he said to Abraham and how he responded. We know what he said to David and how he responded. But what does he say to us today? Here it is.

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he (God) had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

One cannot be justified by believing what Abraham or David believed by which they were justified. We must believe in Jesus Christ who died for us and was buried and rose again. We must believe what God says about it. What does he say? Here it is;

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see how God justifies and reckons the believer in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be righteous and without guilt that can condemn him?

Back to Rom 4. Read this;

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (GOD) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

We must believe the record that God has given of his Son in order to be saved from the penalty of sin. This is the fundamentals of the faith , and your list of fundamentals as a Calvinist are not included.

Ponder these things.

Thanks for the clarification. I see you added to the Bible in Romans 3. Why?
Also, in Romans 4 you see that both the old covenant saints and new covenant saints are children of the promise. The OT saints looked forward to the Promised One (Redeemer) while the NT saints look back on the Redeemer who came. (Hebrews 11) Both are justified by faith.
We are not far from agreement. You just chop up things where I let the Bible be a whole. We both agree that God has always justified by faith.

 

[Reformed1689]

Context is pretty plain. God told Peter He was not willing that any should perish. He wanted ALL to come to repentance. Now, who does "all" leave out? He didn't say "All except..."; He simply said "all" !

It is a letter and you ignore who all refers to.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks for the clarification. I see you added to the Bible in Romans 3. Why?

You 'add' to the Bible every time you say justification is by faith alone. Why?

 

[Iconoclast]

Context is pretty plain. God told Peter He was not willing that any should perish. He wanted ALL to come to repentance. Now, who does "all" leave out? He didn't say "All except..."; He simply said "all" !

any....who?
multitudes are going to perish.
God is very willing that many perish because He has the angels cast them into hell.
Your statement is totally defective.
That is evidence you have no idea about the Covenant of redemption at this point in time.

 

[37818]

It is a letter and you ignore who all refers to.

Well, explicitly who?
2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."

 

[Iconoclast]

Nupe! You think I misunderstand because I reject the calvinist myth.

No...you misunderstand in part because it is truth you cannot conceive of.
It is not given to everyone to understand.

You have invented a plan that you have devised, but pretty sire God is going to stick with His own purpose isa 6:9-11

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Most of this thread is better dealt with in the CvA Forum. However, in the main, Fundamental Baptists are organized on a basis of fellowship, not a formal denomination. IOW, if you want to fellowship with a group fine, if not that's fine too. The division between the two groups goes back to the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Though both are rooted in the Particular Baptists. I would think a Calvinist would be uncomfortable with the "revivalism" of the Fundamentalists.

 

[JD731]

Do Independent Fundamentalist Baptists believe Christ died for all humanity or only for the elect. Pretty simple question. Why not answer it? Calvinists say they believe Christ died only for the elect and thus 2 Peter 2:1 is said not to mean what it says. Since those who believe the literal meaning of scripture would not allow scripture nullification, the only way a 5 pointer could join would be by stealth.

It depends on whether you understand who the elect are.

As I thought, you don't actually know Calvinism. Instead this is nothing but a false defamatory smear job.

Well, can anyone be saved who were not chosen and predestination for salvation in time according to Calvinists? If your answer is no then you have given us "the" fundamental doctrine of Calvinism. Nothing else matters and nothing else is relevant. The death of Christ and his resurrection is equally as important as any other doctrine, I.E. the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of the gift of faith, but not as important as the initial election of the chosen, but each of the doctrines that follow are just a means to the end that has been for those few.

Nothing else matters if you are not chosen, pre-creation. The cross of Christ is incidental in this scheme. it is not foundational to anything in Calvinism.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I am telling the truth here. You need to consider it.

 

[JD731]

Most of this thread is better dealt with in the CvA Forum. However, in the main, Fundamental Baptists are organized on a basis of fellowship, not a formal denomination. IOW, if you want to fellowship with a group fine, if not that's fine too. The division between the two groups goes back to the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Though both are rooted in the Particular Baptists. I would think a Calvinist would be uncomfortable with the "revivalism" of the Fundamentalists.

The fundamentalist forum is the perfect place for this because there is nothing that precedes Jesus and the cross and resurrection that affects a sinner passing from death unto life. the "F" in IFB is "fundamental." This is not a good discussion for Presbyterians.

 

[Reformed1689]

The cross of Christ is incidental in this scheme. it is not foundational to anything in Calvinism.

wrong