Can a Dead Body Sin?

[Amy.G]

Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
According to your recent statement, the unbelievers here are lost forever.


I thought I had saw in the past where you agreed with some that all Israel would be saved in the MK.

I could be wrong.

BBob,

Oh ok. No, I've tried to avoid the MK discussions. I'm still learning about end times and prophesy, so I won't debate it.

But I do believe that if a person dies without Christ, they are lost forever. I do not believe in second chances after death, if that's what you mean.

 

[Brother Bob]

You need to read or at least be familiar with the Greek, from which our translation is taken from.

If its not too much trouble, give it to me in scripture.

BBob,

Have you ever doubted?????

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I keep seeing your attempts to pit me against HP, who is a dear friend, but I have known how he believes for a long time, still believe him to be my brother in Christ and a friend.

BBob,

You perceive incorrectly. I merely pointed you to his testimony, not trying to get you to attack him.

I also believe HP and you to be my brothers in Christ and friends. I love you guys despite your misunderstandings of scripture :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh ok. No, I've tried to avoid the MK discussions. I'm still learning about end times and prophesy, so I won't debate it.

But I do believe that if a person dies without Christ, they are lost forever. I do not believe in second chances after death, if that's what you mean.

Sounds good to me.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

You perceive incorrectly. I merely pointed you to his testimony, not trying to get you to attack him.

I also believe HP and you to be my brothers in Christ and friends. I love you guys despite your misunderstandings of scripture :smilewinkgrin:

Thanks, I love you too and even though we differ, this discussion has been civil. :thumbs:

BBob,

 

[DHK]

If its not too much trouble, give it to me in scripture.

This is from A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures:

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Jn 3:6 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Linear present (linear menōn, keeps on abiding) active indicative of hamartanō, “does not keep on sinning.” For menō (abide) see 1Jo_2:6; Joh_15:4-10.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Whosoever sinneth (ho hamartanōn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menōn above, “the one who keeps on sinning” (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as hamartēsas, aorist active participle, would mean).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hath not seen him (ouch heōraken auton). Perfect active indicative of horaō. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnōken, perfect active also) of Christ. He means, of course, spiritual vision and spiritual knowledge, not the literal sense of horaō in Joh_1:18; Joh_20:29.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He that doeth sin (ho poiōn tēn hamartian). “He that keeps on doing sin” (the habit of sin).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of the devil (ek tou diabolou). In spiritual parentage as Jesus said of the Pharisees in Joh_8:44. When one acts like the devil he shows that he is not a true child of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sinneth from the beginning (ap' archēs hamartanei). Linear progressive present active indicative, “he has been sinning from the beginning” of his career as the devil. This is his normal life and those who imitate him become his spiritual children.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That he might destroy (hina lusēi). Purpose clause with hina and the first aorist active subjunctive of luō. This purpose (eis touto) Jesus had and has. There is eternal conflict, with final victory over Satan certain.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in 1Jo_3:4 like hamartanei in 1Jo_3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. John 1.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartēsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in 1Jo_3:8 and hamartanōn in 1Jo_3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartēte and hamartēi in 1Jo_2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Rom_6:1 epimenōmen tēi hamartiāi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartēsōmen in Rom_6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).[/FONT]


Notice that all the verbs are in the present active or in cases related to it. As he points out repeatedly it means "habitually sins," "a lifestyle of sin," etc. "He that sinneth" does not mean in any of these verses simply committing just one sin.


Verse six is particularly revealing:
He that abideth in him. remember the picture that Jesus gave in John 15. The believer is always abiding in Christ. The branch cannot live without the vine. The believer continues always to abide in Christ.
He that abideth in Him sinneth not. It does not mean a one time sin. It is just like the abiding. As a Christian continues to abide in Christ, a Christian does not continue in a lifestyle of sin. The two don't go together. But it certainly doesn't mean that a Christian won't sin.


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Brother Bob]

This is from A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures:

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Jn 3:6 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Linear present (linear menōn, keeps on abiding) active indicative of hamartanō, “does not keep on sinning.” For menō (abide) see 1Jo_2:6; Joh_15:4-10.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Whosoever sinneth (ho hamartanōn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menōn above, “the one who keeps on sinning” (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as hamartēsas, aorist active participle, would mean).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hath not seen him (ouch heōraken auton). Perfect active indicative of horaō. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnōken, perfect active also) of Christ. He means, of course, spiritual vision and spiritual knowledge, not the literal sense of horaō in Joh_1:18; Joh_20:29.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He that doeth sin (ho poiōn tēn hamartian). “He that keeps on doing sin” (the habit of sin).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of the devil (ek tou diabolou). In spiritual parentage as Jesus said of the Pharisees in Joh_8:44. When one acts like the devil he shows that he is not a true child of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sinneth from the beginning (ap' archēs hamartanei). Linear progressive present active indicative, “he has been sinning from the beginning” of his career as the devil. This is his normal life and those who imitate him become his spiritual children.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That he might destroy (hina lusēi). Purpose clause with hina and the first aorist active subjunctive of luō. This purpose (eis touto) Jesus had and has. There is eternal conflict, with final victory over Satan certain.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in 1Jo_3:4 like hamartanei in 1Jo_3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. John 1.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartēsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in 1Jo_3:8 and hamartanōn in 1Jo_3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartēte and hamartēi in 1Jo_2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Rom_6:1 epimenōmen tēi hamartiāi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartēsōmen in Rom_6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).[/FONT]


Notice that all the verbs are in the present active or in cases related to it. As he points out repeatedly it means "habitually sins," "a lifestyle of sin," etc. "He that sinneth" does not mean in any of these verses simply committing just one sin.


Verse six is particularly revealing:
He that abideth in him. remember the picture that Jesus gave in John 15. The believer is always abiding in Christ. The branch cannot live without the vine. The believer continues always to abide in Christ.
He that abideth in Him sinneth not. It does not mean a one time sin. It is just like the abiding. As a Christian continues to abide in Christ, a Christian does not continue in a lifestyle of sin. The two don't go together. But it certainly doesn't mean that a Christian won't sin.

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.[/FONT]

264
amartanw
hamartano
ham-ar-tan'-o
perhaps from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of meroV - meros 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.



1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


4160
poiew
poieo
poy-eh'-o
apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):--abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do(-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield.

 

[DHK]

264
amartanw
hamartano
ham-ar-tan'-o
perhaps from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of meroV - meros 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

No disagreement Bob. You have to look deeper than just Strong's which will give you the simple root. How is the exact case, voice, whether it is participle or infinitive, etc. Strong's doesn't give you that information. It gives you a very basic meaning of the word. You have to dig much deeper than that to find out how the "verb" is being used.
For example, "He that sinneth" is "he that continues in sin" or "habitually sins." That is the meaning of the statement when the other factors are taken into consideration.

 

[Brother Bob]

No disagreement Bob. You have to look deeper than just Strong's which will give you the simple root. How is the exact case, voice, whether it is participle or infinitive, etc. Strong's doesn't give you that information. It gives you a very basic meaning of the word. You have to dig much deeper than that to find out how the "verb" is being used.
For example, "He that sinneth" is "he that continues in sin" or "habitually sins." That is the meaning of the statement when the other factors are taken into consideration.

In other words, leave the Bible and go to:

Originally Posted by DHK
This is from A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures:

He is doing the same thing you are DHK; He cannot accept scripture for what it says, so he adds to.

DHK; if you want to hold to what Robertson's came up with, because it did not fit his theology, so be it. I will stay with scripture. You must know that Robertson, got his translation from someone.

Have you ever doubted????

BBob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

[FONT=&quot]

DHK: from AT Robertson 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[He that doeth sin (ho poiōn tēn hamartian). “He that keeps on doing sin” (the habit of sin).]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HP: No man has the right, regardless of their so-called education, to limit the wording of Scripture in the manner this author appears to be doing. Taking his words at face value, one could say if I only committed one murder and did not make a habit of it, the verse in question does not apply. That is as far from the truth as one can get. I know little of AT Robertson, but if this is what he has to offer, he is misleading the church and is in grave error being far from the truth. [/FONT]

 

[steaver]

Taking his words at face value, one could say if I only committed one murder and did not make a habit of it, the verse in question does not apply. That is as far from the truth as one can get.

What are you doing HP? Are you now going to argue that this verse does say as BBob states? That a Christain CANNOT sin...EVER...NOT ONCE?

Either BBob's veiw of this verse is correct or DHK's reference of this verse is correct. Which is it for you?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Either BBob's veiw of this verse is correct or DHK's reference of this verse is correct. Which is it for you?

HP: Why do I get only two choices?? I would say that I certainly come closer to Brother Bob's view than DHK's from what I have read and in the way I understand them.

What gets me is when men try and call sin anything and everything, from intents formed in ignorance to premeditated murder, and then wonder why a thinking individual like Brother Bob would see a need to categorize sin.......then insult him with name calling by associating him with being a 'Catholic' as I recall.

[offensive language deleted]

 

[DHK]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HP: No man has the right, regardless of their so-called education, to limit the wording of Scripture in the manner this author appears to be doing. Taking his words at face value, one could say if I only committed one murder and did not make a habit of it, the verse in question does not apply. That is as far from the truth as one can get. I know little of AT Robertson, but if this is what he has to offer, he is misleading the church and is in grave error being far from the truth. [/FONT]

You have a right to your opinion. Do you have any factual evidence to back it up.
A.T. Robertson's draws reasoned conclusions based on the Greek language.
You offered your opinion based on...........?????
You said: "That is as far from the truth as one can get." Care to demonstrate that, and give evidence how it is far from the truth?

 

[steaver]

What gets me is when men try and call sin anything and everything, from intents formed in ignorance to premeditated murder, and then wonder why a thinking individual like Brother Bob would see a need to categorize sin.......

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the interpretation of this verse.

BBob states the verse indicates that a Christian NEVER commits sins such as breaking the law of God. (ie; adultery, bearing false witness, hate or murder, lust, stealing, etc.)

DHK states the verse indicates that a Christian's life is not characterized by a life of habitual sin and that it is not suggesting that a Christian can never ever sin even once after accepting Jesus Christ as Savior.

These two views are total opposites. You say your view is closer to BBob's.

Do you have another interpretation to offer other than one of these?

:jesus:

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the interpretation of this verse.

BBob states the verse indicates that a Christian NEVER commits sins such as breaking the law of God. (ie; adultery, bearing false witness, hate or murder, lust, stealing, etc.)

DHK states the verse indicates that a Christian's life is not characterized by a life of habitual sin and that it is not suggesting that a Christian can never ever sin even once after accepting Jesus Christ as Savior.

These two views are total opposites. You say your view is closer to BBob's.

Do you have another interpretation to offer other than one of these?

:jesus:

DHK; says that "shooting a spit wad" or shooting someone between the eyes with a 38, are the same, no difference with God, so DHK says. Do you believe that also Steaver???

BBob,

 

[DHK]

DHK; says that "shooting a spit wad" or shooting someone between the eyes with a 38, are the same, no difference with God, so DHK says. Do you believe that also Steaver???

BBob,

Quote me where I said that Bob. No misrepresentations allowed.
BTW, your statement would be true if we were speaking of Singapore, where "shooting a spit wad" is indeed against the law, and there is a fine for it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote me where I said that Bob. No misrepresentations allowed.
BTW, your statement would be true if we were speaking of Singapore, where "shooting a spit wad" is indeed against the law, and there is a fine for it.

You mean, if I shot you with a spit wad, it would not be sin???.....................:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You mean, if I shot you with a spit wad, it would not be sin???.....................:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BBob,

In North America, you would be just plain rude, and that too is a sin.
In Singapore, In Singapore it is also a sin. If done often enough you could go to jail for it. It is wise not to mock another nation's laws lest the Lord put you there.

In God's eyes sin is sin. He judges all sin the same.
Sin is a transgression of the law.

 

[steaver]

DHK; says that "shooting a spit wad" or shooting someone between the eyes with a 38, are the same, no difference with God, so DHK says. Do you believe that also Steaver???

BBob,

I believe what DHK says and I agree with is that both are sin and whether it is a "big" sin or a "lesser" sin either one would condemn one to hell without Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Can we define these nouns in this verse?

"brother", is this a brother in Christ or a sibling?

"death", is this physical or spiritual?

"life", is this physical or spiritual?

If "brother" is "Christian" and "life" is spiritual, then how can I pray for one who already has spiritual life? Or did this Christian lose his salvation by sinning a sin not unto death that my prayer can produce eternal life within him again? But this would then mean the "death" is not a spiritual death since he did not sin unto death. :tonofbricks:

But if "death" means spiritual death and the brother did not sin unto spiritual death, then the brother still has spiritual life, so why is the brother receiving spiritual life on top of spiritual life through my prayer?

Could the verse be speaking about physical death and life as in 1Cr 11 where the Christian's sins were making them sickly and even taking their physical lives...

1Cr 11:30For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

This verse (1Jo 5:16) needs some indepth explaining! Anyone care to take a stab at it? The right interpretation must fit logically into a true life senario. John wasn't just wasting his breath (or the Spirit's breath :wavey: )

God Bless!

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe what DHK says and I agree with is that both are sin and whether it is a "big" sin or a "lesser" sin either one would condemn one to hell without Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

So, if I shoot you with a spit wad, I will go just as deep in hell, as if I shot you between the eyes with a 38. Seems to me, we should use a little common sense, every once in a while. If I heard a Pastor preach that, I would have to restrain myself, to keep from laughing in his face.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Can we define these nouns in this verse?

"brother", is this a brother in Christ or a sibling?

"death", is this physical or spiritual?

"life", is this physical or spiritual?

If "brother" is "Christian" and "life" is spiritual, then how can I pray for one who already has spiritual life? Or did this Christian lose his salvation by sinning a sin not unto death that my prayer can produce eternal life within him again? But this would then mean the "death" is not a spiritual death since he did not sin unto death. :tonofbricks:

So, he receives the chastisement rod, that he be not condemned with the world.

But if "death" means spiritual death and the brother did not sin unto spiritual death, then the brother still has spiritual life, so why is the brother receiving spiritual life on top of spiritual life through my prayer?

Could the verse be speaking about physical death and life as in 1Cr 11 where the Christian's sins were making them sickly and even taking their physical lives...

Physical death, when he is already appointed to physically die????

1Cr 11:30For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

This verse (1Jo 5:16) needs some indepth explaining! Anyone care to take a stab at it? The right interpretation must fit logically into a true life senario. John wasn't just wasting his breath (or the Spirit's breath :wavey: )

God Bless!

Well, I do know according to scripture, we can shorten our days.

BBob,