Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?

[Brother Bob]

Bob you can't Scripturally defend your idea that you can "know" who is saved and who isn't, because the Bible makes it clear that only God knows the heart of man. That's just the plain and simple Truth.

Don't put words in my mouth. I certainly can't tell who is saved or lost and didn't say I could, unless they are in adultery, or murdering someone or worshiping a cow then I can tell they probably are not saved. If someone came cussing like a sailor then I wouldn't think he was saved either.

Use your head for once, why would God use the Scriptures of corrupt fruit and good fruit unless he was talking about doing good or evil.. It is just plain silly to say otherwise.



And you say this is speaking to teachers? J. Jump; you destroy scripture, you don't discuss it.

Matt.12
32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Bob you can't Scripturally defend your idea that you can "know" who is saved and who isn't, because the Bible makes it clear that only God knows the heart of man. That's just the plain and simple Truth.

HP: Only God knows the heart of man? Then how can one be sure of his own salvation? How can one even consider losing or not losing that which only God knows?

Your comments sure invalidate all those 'repeat after me prayers' that generally conclude with telling the new candidate that they have been born again, doesn't it.

 

[J. Jump]

Your comments sure invalidate all those 'repeat after me prayers' that generally conclude with telling the new candidate that they have been born again, doesn't it.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the repeat after me prayers! I think we have done a TERRIBLE disservice to folks in our evangelism styles. By the grace and mercy of God He has worked through our shortcomings, but we REALLY need to take a look at evangelism today.

But you can know because the Bible makes it real clear believe and you will be saved. So if you believe then you can know you are saved. The good news of salvation by grace through faith is so simple and easy to the praise and glory of God Almighty!

 

[J. Jump]

I certainly can't tell who is saved or lost and didn't say I could

Bob are you kidding me. You most certainly are. What in the world are you doing by examining fruit if not determining who is and who is not lost. Come on Bob.

Let me take you back to your original quote.

If I see a "so called Christian" in adultery, murder, stealing sinning unto death then I say he never was a Christian to start

That is Bob saying I can tell who is a Christian and who is not. If "Bob" sees a "Christian" that commits adultery, murder or stealing then that person according to Bob is not a Christian.

Come on Bob that is exactly what you have been saying and no one is putting words in your mouth.

unless they are in adultery, or murdering someone or worshiping a cow then I can tell they probably are not saved.

Again here you are saying that you don't know if someone is saved and then you contradict yourself (although you back off the original statement a bit by adding "probably") in the same sentence.

Bob you can either tell or not. Which is it? The Bible says Bob, Jason, Joe, Mary, Jane, Sue, Jim Bob, Pope So-and-So, Billy Graham whoever you want to put in there can not tell if someone is saved.

You have to ask the right question and if you receive the Biblical answer then you treat that person as if they are a saved individual and go from there.

And you say this is speaking to teachers? J. Jump; you destroy scripture, you don't discuss it.

Bob here you go again with your cherry picking. But who is addressed in Matthew 12? Jesus was speaking again to the religious leaders and teachers of that day.

Now people during that day were certainly capable of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but Jesus is speaking to the leaders and teachers.

By the way I never even brought up Matthew 12 so I don't see how in the world you could accuse me of destroying Scripture when that's not even a passage that I brought up or you brought up until the last post.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: But you can know because the Bible makes it real clear believe and you will be saved. So if you believe then you can know you are saved. The good news of salvation by grace through faith is so simple and easy to the praise and glory of God Almighty!

HP: I thought you said only God can know who is saved. Now you tell me we can know. Are you retracting the statement about God alone knowing?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Bob you can either tell or not. Which is it? The Bible says Bob, Jason, Joe, Mary, Jane, Sue, Jim Bob, Pope So-and-So, Billy Graham whoever you want to put in there can not tell if someone is saved.

HP: Are you absolutely sure JJ? “Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

 

[Brother Bob]

J Jump;
Surely you would not accuse me of something you are guilty of, like the Pharasees would you?

Here you said in one post you can tell who is saved by using the Bible.
You have to ask the right question and if you receive the Biblical answer then you treat that person as if they are a saved individual and go from there. But you can know because the Bible makes it real clear believe and you will be saved. So if you believe then you can know you are saved. The good news of salvation by grace through faith is so simple and easy to the praise and glory of God Almighty!

He was telling them how they were saved. Which tells us how a person is saved so that we will know.

Once a person believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, then they are saved

Here you say only God knows.

You clearly are teaching against Scripture. The Bible clearly says only God knows the heart, but you say Brother Bob can know the heart which makes God a liar and I'm sorry but that's just not possible.

Here you say this Scripture is:

Brother Bob will all due respect I would encourage you to re-read "your" Bible and see the context of that passage. It's not talking about a general population of people and whether they are believers or not. It's talking about how to distinguish a false teacher.

Here is the Scriptures and He was talking to His Apostles and teaching them the Beatitudes

"13": And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

"14": Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,

"15": Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,

"16": And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

"17": And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

"18": And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.

"19": And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.

"20": And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

"21": Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

"22": Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

"23": Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

"24": But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

"25": Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

"26": Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

"27": But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

"28": Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

"29": And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

"30": Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

"31": And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

"32": For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

"33": And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

"34": And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

"35": But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

"36": Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

"37": Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

"38": Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

"39": And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

"40": The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

"41": And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

"42": Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

"43": For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Here you say a false prophet is saved, when the scripture says to not bid the God speed.

And by the way a person can be saved and be a false teacher! Just look around at Christendom. All these "teachers" are not teaching the Truth, but yet they are saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Where does the Bible say that we must "repent of our sins"? This is a mistaken theology. Nowhere does the Bible teach that one must repent of their sins--an impossible task, BTW.
Once saved we are always saved, that is true, but it does not give anyone a licence to sin. Once saved, one will have or ought to have, the desire to live a more holy life, not a carnal life. For the carnal man cannot please God.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1John 1:9 "IF WE CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Acts 2 "REPENT and be baptized"!!

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that men should repent.

Luke 13:3
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 17:30
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Revelation 2:5
'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16
'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

 

[BobRyan]

First, there is no objective test for salvation.

Second, if it was possible to lose one's salvation the person who lost it would not care.

Third, Doesn't matter unless one is planning to sin.

Romans 3 "ALL have sinned"

Matt 18 - "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" is fully explained.

Romans 1 "Being CAST OUT OF THE VINE OF CHRIST" is fully explained AND "HE is able to graft THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief".

Pretty obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

HP: Are you absolutely sure JJ? “Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

Matthew 7 is part of the sermon on the Mount. It's talking about saved people and their fruit, not using fruit to determine whether they are saved or unsaved. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a Kingdom message to saved people, not a "get saved" message.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: Matthew 7 is part of the sermon on the Mount. It's talking about saved people and their fruit, not using fruit to determine whether they are saved or unsaved. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a Kingdom message to saved people, not a "get saved" message.

HP: Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

That sounds like some powerful admonitions to anyone to me, saved or unsaved.

The sermon on the Mount was primarily spoken for the benefit of teaching His disciples. If you are correct, why cannot I assume that this message to ‘saved individuals alone,’ (according to you) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that one can lose their salvation, for one of those spoken to was none other than Judas.

 

[J. Jump]

Brother Bob always trying to change the subject aren't you. Hey if you want to continue believing what you believe that is on you, but I'm going to call you when you make errouneous statements so that others don't fall into your traps.

If you don't want to defend what you believe that's okay to, but to accuse someone of being a Pharisee is a bit much.

It just cracks me up when people are shown the error of their way and instead of admit it they just start calling people names.

Brother Bob I have not attacked you, and if you feel that way I most certainly apologize, because those weren't my intentions. But as fellow believers were are to help each other when we see each other in error.

I would expect the same of you if you saw me in error, and then I would need to show you in Scripture whether or not something is right or if not then I need to change my view of Scripture.

But we don't just start calling people names because we don't like what they have to say. If you dont' agree with me that's fine. Use Scripture and prove your stance to be right. That has not been the case so far.

 

[J. Jump]

If you are correct, why cannot I assume that this message to ‘saved individuals alone,’ (according to you) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that one can lose their salvation, for one of those spoken to was none other than Judas.

Again because eternal salvation is not the context of the message. The message was being spoken to people that were already eternally saved and that issue was really a non-issue as far as God was concerned. He had moved on to a different subject. He had moved onto the teaching of the kingdom.

See that's where the "church" misses the mark today. They think eternal salvation is what it is all about. That's why we have so many people stuck in the milk because they can't get beyond eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not the end, but the beginning. We are supposed to move beyond that and onto maturity. The kingodm message is a message of maturity.

The Bible is not written to unsaved people. It's not even primarily about unsaved people. The Bible is written to people that are spiritually alive to understand how to mature in the faith and what the purpose is for maturing in the faith.

Eternal salvation is not addressed much at all because it is a simple message that if you believe you are saved. The pathway to maturity is not as simple and that's why there are so many books about how to get from the milk to the strong meat. And that's why there are so many admonishments, encouragments, commandments and such because moving onto maturity in the faith is not something that is easy. We have three enemies that are at war against us in this pursuit. A good number of Christians aren't even in the battle, because they don't even know they are supposed to be fighting.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ, if one states that he is not saved, can you tell me if he is saved or not? (Careful now, we don’t desire to play God.)

 

[EdSutton]

Don't put words in my mouth. I certainly can't tell who is saved or lost and didn't say I could, unless they are in adultery, or murdering someone or worshiping a cow then I can tell they probably are not saved.

I guess in your theology, that means David was not saved?? Or can you get by only doing two out of three?

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I guess in your theology, that means David was not saved?? Or can you get by only doing two out of three?

​

HP: I know you are asking Brother Bob, but may I offer this? God has locked us in to faith in this world as the means by which we hold our salvation. Of a truth, God knows the beginning from the end, but He does not give us that absolute knowledge He possesses. Rather than to just say one has lost his salvation, or he wasn’t saved at the time, why not just say that he could not have had a full assurance of his final standing before the Lord while in possession of an evil conscience and while our final standing is held by faith?

God has not so designed ones assurance of salvation to testify positively of our final standing with Him when our conscience testifies to us of present sin we have yet to repent and turn from. The key is to find that place of consistent obedience through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, that our walk remains consistently obedient and the light of our assurance burns consistently bright and glorious.

 

[J. Jump]

JJ, if one states that he is not saved, can you tell me if he is saved or not?

No one can know at any time with 100% accuracy whether someone is saved or not. If someone admits to not being saved then I would treat them as an unbeliever and all the Holy Spirit to use me as a vessel to witness to that person.

If a person says that they believe in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on behalf of themselves a sinner, that He died in their place then I am going to treat that person as a fellow believer.

 

[Brother Bob]

HOG: Matthew 7 is part of the sermon on the Mount. It's talking about saved people and their fruit, not using fruit to determine whether they are saved or unsaved. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a Kingdom message to saved people, not a "get saved" message.

It is talking about saved and unsaved and the fruit of both. Jesus is teaching His Apostles about the very thing about the fruits of the tree, and as HP said, Judas was among them also, so in reality He was teaching saved and unsaved, unless you believe that Judas was saved.

So, to try and separate them into saved groups and unsaved groups on the mount you have to know who was there and not just call them teachers of that time now wouldn't you?

Ed;
None of the other Apostles knew that Judas was of the devil so how am I supposed to know. You always have to run back to the OT to prove a point don't you? Also Ed;, being you got one out of the three can you get all three?
What about all your neighbors Ed? Can you walk up and down the street and say that one saved and that one is not?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob always trying to change the subject aren't you. Hey if you want to continue believing what you believe that is on you, but I'm going to call you when you make errouneous statements so that others don't fall into your traps.

quote

Brother Bob I have not attacked you, and if you feel that way I most certainly apologize, because those weren't my intentions. But as fellow believers were are to help each other when we see each other in error.

You mister goody two shoes alright. I never called you a Pharasee just said you wasn't going to do what they did and accuse

me of something you were guilty of. You don't call anyone anything but in the above statement you accuse me of making

errouneous statements, setting traps but I guess that is ok as long as it is you calling me. If you want to continue calling me

things trying to throw me off subject feel free to do so but I will continue to show your double talk as you put it forth.

Jump;
Surely you would not accuse me of something you are guilty of, like the Pharasees would you?
Quote:
Here you said in one post you can tell who is saved by using the Bible.
You have to ask the right question and if you receive the Biblical answer then you treat that person as if they are a saved individual and go from there. But you can know because the Bible makes it real clear believe and you will be saved. So if you believe then you can know you are saved. The good news of salvation by grace through faith is so simple and easy to the praise and glory of God Almighty!

He was telling them how they were saved. Which tells us how a person is saved so that we will know.

Once a person believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, then they are saved


Here you say only God knows.
Quote:
You clearly are teaching against Scripture. The Bible clearly says only God knows the heart, but you say Brother Bob can know the heart which makes God a liar and I'm sorry but that's just not possible.

(Here you change again, which is it?

No one can know at any time with 100% accuracy whether someone is saved or not. If someone admits to not being saved then I would treat them as an unbeliever and all the Holy Spirit to use me as a vessel to witness to that person.)

 

[J. Jump]

Brother Bob you are hillarious.