You're grossly misapplying the context of Hebrews by NOT following the first rule of interpretation:
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
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Can one lose their salvation?
- Thread starter 5 point Gillinist
- Start date
You're grossly misapplying the context of Hebrews by NOT following the first rule of interpretation:
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so when it says in chapter 3:1, "Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus", and the other references to "brothers", these are only to Jewish believers? in which case Gentile Christians should ignore the Book of Hebrews?
you are using this lame argument because what Hebrews teaches is against your theology!
Hell, hell, hell, hell on the brain. You're so typical of your theology that believes God only punishes with eternity in torment, which is insane. The Lord will, and does, judge His people. Not eternally but temporally in this time world. Go through the entire book, these 'falling away' are described as brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, referred to as 'His people'. They entered not into His rest because of unbelief. Even Moses and Aaron were refused entrance into His rest because of their unbelief.
Are Moses and Aaron in hell?
Does Christ's atonement cover the sin of unbelief?
Are there other sins that His atonement doesn't cover?
Check out chapter 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10
These in chapter 10 had 'received the knowledge of the truth', were 'sanctified by the blood of the covenant', called 'His people'. It's not just 'any ol' sin' that's in view here, but a specific sin (returning to apostate Judaism) of which a specific people (professing Jewish Christians), of a specific time (the very generation that judged Christ to be worthy of death) were under pressure to do.
There was to be no repentance granted for those that fell away and returned back to that apostate system that killed Christ, because by returning they crucified the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame (Heb 6:4-6), but there was only a certain fearful expectation of judgment which would devour the adversaries before that generation passed away (Heb 10:37), for those that had trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:27-29) by falling away back to the apostate Judaism they been delivered from.
THAT is a very crucial message contained within the book, FOR ALL BELIEVERS.
It was likely a sermon that Paul gave to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem just before being put in prison. Those who were listening would have been both long-time believers as well as people curious to hear what Paul had to say. Therefore, when you read the sermon you understand that Paul was doing what all good preachers do. He was calling people to no longer be living with one foot in the world and one foot in heaven. He was calling everyone listening to hear the gospel and believe. If you actually read the whole sermon in one setting, you'll grasp this clear and brilliant line of reasoning. Unfortunately, people keep chopping up Paul's arguments into out of context sound bites, which is exactly what you are doing.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 3:12, is written to ALL born-again Christians
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God
"fall away", is from ἀφίστημι, which means "to revolt" from God. Thayer's lexicon says, "to fall away, become faithless". Abbott-Smith lexicon, "all away, apostatize". BGAD says, "Fall away, become apostate"
This is what the Bible says, and not my personal theology! True believers can REVOLT and become APOSTATE from God. Otherwise these verses are pointless!
...end up in the lake of fire? Is that your point? Hell, hell, hell, hell on the brain. May you derive the 'comfort' you deserve from that unscriptural belief.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
instead of your pointless attacks on me, why not deal with the Bible passages that I have quoted? lets see what you say on Heb 3:12, for starters
atpollard
Well-Known Member
My use of Romans 8 in the context of that post was to demonstrate that "JUSTIFIED" and "GLORIFIED" were two different things ... nothing more and nothing less. I do not believe in loss of salvation, nor was I attempting to convince you of any "Particular Baptist" point of theology. I was merely defining common terms for truths found in scripture.
- People do transition from "sinners" to "saints" through Christ (that IS Justification ... HOWEVER IT HAPPENS).
- People are "transformed by the renewing of their minds" during their lifetimes (that IS Sanctification ... HOWEVER IT HAPPENS).
- People will be made perfect in Heaven (that IS Glorification ... HOWEVER IT HAPPENS).
I did. post #63"
"...The Lord will, and does, judge His people. Not eternally but temporally in this time world. Go through the entire book, these 'falling away' are described as brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, referred to as 'His people'. They entered not into His rest because of unbelief. Even Moses and Aaron were refused entrance into His rest because of their unbelief.
Are Moses and Aaron in hell?
Does Christ's atonement cover the sin of unbelief?
Are there other sins that His atonement doesn't cover?..."
This is a hard pill for hell-mongers to swallow, that God judges His people is this temporal realm, not in the eternal flame.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 3:12 is talking about Christians REVOLTING and committing APOSTASY from God. you have ignored this verse!
K. So?
You can tell everything that a 'born again' Christian is capable of doing by everything they're told not to do in the book. And God will, and does, Judge His people.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
ok, I can see that you cannot respond to what Hebrews 3:12 says, as it is against what you personally believe. Then there is no point in carrying on with this fruitless discussion
Are you dense? I don't know how I could have responded better. Are you expecting an essay from me? Here it is once again:
What is 'the book' telling them not to do here?:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
you still have not addressed what Hebrews 3:12 says!
...well maybe you are...dense.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Your name calling just confirms that those who place their theology above what the Bible Teaches!
<sigh> once again, from post #73:
What is 'the book' telling them not to do here?:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
It is very clear that true believers can REVOLT and commit Apostasy from the Lord. What do you think this means
For some reason you're hung up on Heb 3:12 as if it's supposed to be a shocker to the doctrines of grace. There's no 'shocker' here:
1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. ! Cor 10
I reiterate:
"You can tell everything that a 'born again' Christian is capable of doing by everything they're told not to do in the book. And God will, and does, Judge His people."
...and that includes having an evil heart of unbelief.