Can one lose their salvation?

[37818]

That is an interesting one, and one that has given many trouble. I believe this refers to those who professed christianity at one point, but then apostatized. The bit about sanctification is tricky though, and Ironside does bring that passage up, and states that

"Of old, all the people of Israel, and all who were associated with them, were set apart to God both on the night of the passover and afterwards in the wilderness. But this did not necessarily imply a work of the Spirit in their souls.

All whom are real, who have judged themselves before God, and truly confide in His grace, will remain in that house. If any leave that house, it only proves their lack of ever really belonging to Christ; but such will never find another sacrifice for sins because in Christ all other offerings for sin have been done away." Ironside

Sanctification precedes salvation.

1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ."

John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ."

Romans 10:17, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ."

 

[atpollard]

And yes, if one attains this state of sinlessness then many brag about their work (as many did to Ironside), because as he said this doctrine teaches that man keeps himself - so one does have something to boast about.

I have encountered such people and view their claims as proof of the sin of PRIDE and suspicion of the sin of LYING.

That said, the "pernicious error" seems to be the false teaching that GRACE died upon our justification ... which is definitely NOT "Good News" by any definition of the term. That man can strive to submit to the spirit and not to his flesh seems a laudable goal not to be quickly abandoned as "unobtainable" (even if it truly is unobtainable in this life).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I know there are a fair amount who believe it is possible to lose one's salvation. Clearly, there are a lot of verses one has to explain away (as well as explaining how God's guarantee of our salvation can be broken - which can't make it a guarantee). And my biggest question is, how isn't this a theology of works righteousness?

If one can lose salvation, are they really saved?

And yes, it would be works, Amen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you believe in freedom of the will, you must logically believe the will can not only accept God's salvation, but also reject God's salvation. The key to retaining it is what you do. Thus, the Nazarene's believe that you can both reach sinless perfection as well as lose your salvation when and if you sin without having repented. They, in my opinion, follow the logic of free will to its obvious conclusions.

Interestingly, a Reformed view can seem similar. While the Reformed believe that God chooses and keeps his children, the Reformed also note that salvation is evidenced in perseverance so that a person should always check oneself to see if they are persevering. This check is the work of faith. The writer to the Hebrews gives this check to believers by warning us not to drift and not to fall away, all the time being confident that we are in the faith.

Thus the Reformed hold a different view from those who teach once saved always saved. This group can be free will or Reformed, but they tend to hinge their security on saying the sinners prayer, which would "seal" them with the Spirit of God and keep them secure no matter the failures and unrepentance of the individual.

This is not actually true

We love because God first loved us.

A person who has truly experienced Gods love would never "Will" to reject his salvation and decide it is ok to go to hell.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That is an interesting one, and one that has given many trouble. I believe this refers to those who professed christianity at one point, but then apostatized. The bit about sanctification is tricky though, and Ironside does bring that passage up, and states that

"Of old, all the people of Israel, and all who were associated with them, were set apart to God both on the night of the passover and afterwards in the wilderness. But this did not necessarily imply a work of the Spirit in their souls.

All whom are real, who have judged themselves before God, and truly confide in His grace, will remain in that house. If any leave that house, it only proves their lack of ever really belonging to Christ; but such will never find another sacrifice for sins because in Christ all other offerings for sin have been done away." Ironside

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me;” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10)

There is no person who is not born-again by the Spirit of God, of whom it can be said, "has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing". This person has been made "holy" by the Blood of Jesus Christ, which cannot refer to a unbeliever. Nor can the words in verse 30, about God's "Vengence" for HIS PEOPLE, which is never used for an unsaved person. The "wilful" sin of verse 26, can only refer to the REJECTION of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, by a saved person, as the context says. Otherwise the warnings/threats here mean nothing, as the unsaved are already "lost", and hell-bound!

 

[AustinC]

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me;” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10)

There is no person who is not born-again by the Spirit of God, of whom it can be said, "has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing". This person has been made "holy" by the Blood of Jesus Christ, which cannot refer to a unbeliever. Nor can the words in verse 30, about God's "Vengence" for HIS PEOPLE, which is never used for an unsaved person. The "wilful" sin of verse 26, can only refer to the REJECTION of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, by a saved person, as the context says. Otherwise the warnings/threats here mean nothing, as the unsaved are already "lost", and hell-bound!

Well lookie here. SBG speaking like a Nazarene when attempting to understand the preacher to the Hebrews. Of course he neglects to mention that the speaker to the Hebrews always couches his comment with "I am confident this is not you." When we read Hebrews we need to understand that it is likely a recorded sermon and his church audience is made up of both the redeemed and unredeemed who are listening.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can one lose their salvation?

No.

 

[SovereignGrace]

“If you could lose your salvation, you would.”

Dr. John MacArthur

 

[timdabap]

This isn't my tribe so I'm not for or against but isn't "time" salvation sort of a controversial off shoot of Primitive Baptists?

the only objections I have read on it, so far, seems to be coming from Primitive Baptists who are by and large what we call "the absoluters" who hold to the absolute predestination by God of all things, a.k.a double predestination which most Calvinists are said to hold to.

 

[AustinC]

the only objections I have read on it, so far, seems to be coming from Primitive Baptists who are by and large what we call "the absoluters" who hold to the absolute predestination by God of all things, a.k.a double predestination which most Calvinists are said to hold to.

I just call it full Sovereignty over all Creation. There is never a rogue molecule of which God is unaware.
I hold to this because the Bible declares it.

That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
~ Isaiah 45:6-7

Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.
~ 1 Chronicles 29:11-12

 

[alexander284]

Sanctification precedes salvation.

1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ."

John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ."

Romans 10:17, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ."

I think we all appreciate your citing of scripture to support your position. (And, yes, I'm being serious here.)

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I was a member of a FWB Church for 4 years, even though I disagreed with them on several secondary doctrinal points.

Our former Church's position was that Salvation can be lost only at the point where the Christian makes plain, and openly denies Christ and rejects Salvation. The Bible verse about "no man can pluck them out of His hand" was believed to mean that nobody but yourself can remove your Salvation.

There's a couple proof texts that I recall him using. One was Hebrews 6:4-8 where it talks about one having been enlightened, and having tasted the Holy Spirit falling away.

I'm trying to remember the other one, but I can't currently remember it. I will post again if I can recall it.

I don't agree with their belief, but I also don't think they're just "pulling it out of their rear" as my wife and I like to say. They're not crazy.

 

[alexander284]

“If you could lose your salvation, you would.”

Dr. John MacArthur

That is a very interesting way of putting things. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I was a member of a FWB Church for 4 years, even though I disagreed with them on several secondary doctrinal points.

Our former Church's position was that Salvation can be lost only at the point where the Christian makes plain, and openly denies Christ and rejects Salvation. The Bible verse about "no man can pluck them out of His hand" was believed to mean that nobody but yourself can remove your Salvation.

Yes, I had a conversation once with someone who stated the same thing about the passage "no one can pluck you from His hand" the problem is I don't remember seeing the part about "except you."

 

[5 point Gillinist]

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me;” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10)

There is no person who is not born-again by the Spirit of God, of whom it can be said, "has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing". This person has been made "holy" by the Blood of Jesus Christ, which cannot refer to a unbeliever. Nor can the words in verse 30, about God's "Vengence" for HIS PEOPLE, which is never used for an unsaved person. The "wilful" sin of verse 26, can only refer to the REJECTION of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, by a saved person, as the context says. Otherwise the warnings/threats here mean nothing, as the unsaved are already "lost", and hell-bound!

Respectfully, how can one force God to not fulfill His guarantee of salvation upon the giving of the Holy Spirit (2 corinthians 1:22), wouldn't this make God a liar? How can one un-adopt themselves from God? How can one declare the blood of Christ insufficient? How can one un-purchase himself from the salvation which was bought at the cost of Christ's blood and body?

I agree there is much difficult language in the bible that upon cursory glance suggests that we can lose our salvation, but as John says in 1 John 2:19 they went out because they were never of us, to begin with.

 

[alexander284]

Respectfully? Are you certain you're on the right message board, sir?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Respectfully, how can one force God to not fulfill His guarantee of salvation upon the giving of the Holy Spirit (2 corinthians 1:22), wouldn't this make God a liar? How can one un-adopt themselves from God? How can one declare the blood of Christ insufficient? How can one un-purchase himself from the salvation which was bought at the cost of Christ's blood and body?

I agree there is much difficult language in the bible that upon cursory glance suggests that we can lose our salvation, but as John says in 1 John 2:19 they went out because they were never of us, to begin with.

can you explain the very strong language used in the passage in Hebrews chapter 10? It is very much pointless for the Lord to warn and threaten those who are not the elect, as they, according to some, cannot be saved anyway!

These words in chapter 3 are to BELIEVERS, and not the UNSAVED

Wherefore, even as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye shall hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the temptation in the wilderness, 9 Wherewith your fathers tempted [me] by proving [me], And saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do alway err in their heart: But they did not know my ways; 11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. 12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: 14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

I am not interested in "theology", but what the Bible says. Now can you explain this passage as well?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

can you explain the very strong language used in the passage in Hebrews chapter 10? It is very much pointless for the Lord to warn and threaten those who are not the elect, as they, according to some, cannot be saved anyway!

These words in chapter 3 are to BELIEVERS, and not the UNSAVED

Wherefore, even as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye shall hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the temptation in the wilderness, 9 Wherewith your fathers tempted [me] by proving [me], And saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do alway err in their heart: But they did not know my ways; 11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. 12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: 14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

I am not interested in "theology", but what the Bible says. Now can you explain this passage as well?

Can you explain the questions that I asked?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Sanctification precedes salvation.

1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ."

John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ."

Romans 10:17, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ."

There is also some question as to Hebrews 10:29 as to whether the "by which he was sanctified" refers to Christ - John 17:19

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I have encountered such people and view their claims as proof of the sin of PRIDE and suspicion of the sin of LYING.

That said, the "pernicious error" seems to be the false teaching that GRACE died upon our justification ... which is definitely NOT "Good News" by any definition of the term. That man can strive to submit to the spirit and not to his flesh seems a laudable goal not to be quickly abandoned as "unobtainable" (even if it truly is unobtainable in this life).

To strive for sinlessness isn't necessarily a bad goal. Yet I think it very easily can (and its logical conclusion is to) turn into legalism, and confuse justification and sanctification. We should all strive to be obedient to Christ more and more, but when one teaches that one can be sinless in this life, questions about one's standing naturally arise when one looks at themselves and see how wretched they are. I believe this is a pernicious error because the bible nowhere teaches it, rather it encourages us to come to Christ when we sin, and states that those who say they have not sinned lie, and do not have the truth within them.