Can you know if you are "elect".

[DaveXR650]

It seems like the reformed view of faith as a hand reaching out to take a free gift does allow you to say you chose to believe. Most Calvinists insist that faith has a component of your will involved in it and they insist that faith is something done on the part of the person. God does not believe for you. Spurgeon didn't seem to have a problem with that.

 

[kyredneck]

It seems like the reformed view of faith as a hand reaching out to take a free gift does allow you to say you chose to believe. Most Calvinists insist that faith has a component of your will involved in it and they insist that faith is something done on the part of the person. God does not believe for you. Spurgeon didn't seem to have a problem with that.

Did you have any choice in the matter of your physical birth?

Did you have any choice in the matter of your spiritual birth?

 

[kyredneck]

It seems like the reformed view of faith as a hand reaching out to take a free gift does allow you to say you chose to believe.

If I were to 'gift' you a car with the keys parked outside your house and yet you never 'chose' to get in and drive it, matters not. As far as I'm concerned, I gave you the 'free gift' of the car regardless of whether you decide to enjoy the benefits of it or not.

 

[DaveXR650]

Read my post. I didn't say we choose to be born again. I said that there is a proper sense in which we do indeed choose to believe. And as far as assurance is concerned, the fact that you believe is useful as evidence that you are born again. So if someone says I chose to believe, therefore I must be born again, if they mean this as evidence they are born again then yes, I agree. If they mean that them choosing to believe is the actual material cause of the new birth then I disagree with their understanding of their new birth.

 

[DaveXR650]

I was writing when you posted above. The car analogy is a good free will argument. I wouldn't use that one. I'm not even sure how I would answer back if an Arminian used it.

 

[kyredneck]

I said that there is a proper sense in which we do indeed choose to believe.

Faith is a conviction, NOT a decision. Here is the choice:

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah. Josh 24

Only the elect have that choice.

 

[Silverhair]

Did you have any choice in the matter of your physical birth?

Did you have any choice in the matter of your spiritual birth?

If one has nothing to do with their spiritual birth then it is just God forcing some to believe or it just being a lottery and your number came up.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is a conviction, NOT a decision. Here is the choice:

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah. Josh 24

Only the elect have that choice.

For one to be convicted one has to have information which can be evaluated. As the verse you posted points out they had to make a choice A or not A. Follow God or reject God. That is the same choice all men have placed before them.

 

[DaveXR650]

Faith is a conviction, NOT a decision. Here is the choice:

I think it's both. There is a conviction that the gospel propositions are true. You believe what the Bible says about you, and your condition as a lost sinner, and what Christ does for you. But then you have to decide whether to trust in this and venture your soul on this. The Puritans would say you "close" with Christ. This part is decisional and involves the will.

 

[Silverhair]

Read my post. I didn't say we choose to be born again. I said that there is a proper sense in which we do indeed choose to believe. And as far as assurance is concerned, the fact that you believe is useful as evidence that you are born again. So if someone says I chose to believe, therefore I must be born again, if they mean this as evidence they are born again then yes, I agree. If they mean that them choosing to believe is the actual material cause of the new birth then I disagree with their understanding of their new birth.

That a person chooses to believe does not save them only God can save a person. If a person upon hearing the gospel continues in their unbelief God does not force them to be saved, He grants them their desire and leaves them where they are, lost. But if the person puts their faith in the object of the gospel message (Christ Jesus) God will grant them salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

The car analogy is a good free will argument.

No. We don't share the same meaning of 'free gift'. Eternal life is not just a gift, it's a 'free gift'. Those believing are already in possession of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

[DaveXR650]

No. We don't share the same meaning of 'free gift'. Eternal life is not just a gift, it's a 'free gift'. Those believing are already in possession of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Every one of your proof verses connects the free gift with believing. I was just saying that if the car is the free gift then getting in and driving is the faith. (Now I'm not saying that you have the ability as a natural man to realize your situation, be convicted of your sins, and throw yourself on God's mercy, trusting in Jesus. You cannot do that without the direct action of the Holy Spirit.) And because of that I believe faith itself is a gift. But YOU have to have the faith and YOU have to trust in Christ. There is an active component of faith that you must do.

 

[DaveXR650]

That a person chooses to believe does not save them only God can save a person. If a person upon hearing the gospel continues in their unbelief God does not force them to be saved, He grants them their desire and leaves them where they are, lost. But if the person puts their faith in the object of the gospel message (Christ Jesus) God will grant them salvation.

I agree with you and what I have not figured out for myself is how the line is drawn when someone continues in unbelief. I tend to be Calvinistic and I know that they teach that whenever anyone is saved it's because an involuntary regeneration occurs due to overcoming grace which cannot be resisted. But I read a lot of Puritans and even high Calvinists like John Owen warned people in his sermons not to trifle with the Holy Spirit because he may not call you again at some point. This seems to me to not be absolutely effectual. It also seems to me that there are Calvinists who are so Calvinistic that they would bristle at the preaching of Owen or Edwards. I haven't figured it all out.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd. I guess you're right. I was actually thinking more about assurance than election. I know on here the whole concept of election is disputed. But I was reading Owen and like always with the other Puritans he got into the question of assurance. They did that whether they were talking about election or holiness or saving faith. I find them helpful but I know some think they went to far and needlessly scared people.

I don’t think John Owen, or other Puritans will lead you astray. They devoted their lives to understanding scripture and how that knowledge should be worked out in our lives.

They go very deep and are difficult to understand at times, but at the very foundation they were devoted to God and understanding His word.

Good luck in your study. I will look for further threads on their teachings. It will be enlightening.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Every one of your proof verses connects the free gift with believing.

Yes. Everyone believing has eternal life. John 3:36; Acts of the Apostles 13:48

Everyone coming to Christ God has wrought within. John 1:12-13; John 3:21

 

[kyredneck]

I believe faith itself is a gift

Well, yea, a gift, but not a decision or a choice. A gift:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

It's a gift in the sense that it's fruit of the spiritual birth which absolutely must occur first:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

It's those whom God has wrought within that eventually come to the light:

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

I would think that even a 'milquetoast Calvinist' could understand the necessity of "regeneration before faith".

 

[Marooncat79]

I had no choice, but to embrace Christ

I saw my sin

I saw my future

I saw a Christ as the Savior I needed

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with you and what I have not figured out for myself is how the line is drawn when someone continues in unbelief. I tend to be Calvinistic and I know that they teach that whenever anyone is saved it's because an involuntary regeneration occurs due to overcoming grace which cannot be resisted. But I read a lot of Puritans and even high Calvinists like John Owen warned people in his sermons not to trifle with the Holy Spirit because he may not call you again at some point. This seems to me to not be absolutely effectual. It also seems to me that there are Calvinists who are so Calvinistic that they would bristle at the preaching of Owen or Edwards. I haven't figured it all out.

What baffles me is why someone would continue in unbelief. The evidence for God is so clear to me that I am frankly at a loss as to understand disbelief. If one is only saved by an irresistible grace then what do we say of those that do not get that grace. If God in His sovereignty has decided that most will be lost they are lost not for sin but because God decided not to save them. Man must be able to accept or reject the prompting of God. Even the Puritans & Owen seem to have understood this. As you said Owen warned people not to reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tyndale1946]

I had no choice, but to embrace Christ

I saw my sin

I saw my future

I saw a Christ as the Savior I needed

God came to me I didn't go to God... So are all who are born of God... I have evidence I'm elect... Election is in Gods hands not mine... and chance, is spelled Christ (his birth, his life, his death and his resurrection), and without him there is no chance... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

Well, yea, a gift, but not a decision or a choice. A gift:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

It's a gift in the sense that it's fruit of the spiritual birth which absolutely must occur first:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

It's those whom God has wrought within that eventually come to the light:

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

I would think that even a 'milquetoast Calvinist' could understand the necessity of "regeneration before faith".

If as you claim faith is a gift that without which one can not be saved then the withholding of that gift by God means that He has condemned most of His creation to hell for something they had no way of getting. If on the other hand you hold to your regeneration before faith then you have people saved/made alive before they have faith and that calls into question why they even need faith at all.