Can you know if you are "elect".

[Martin Marprelate]

If one has nothing to do with their spiritual birth then it is just God forcing some to believe or it just being a lottery and your number came up.

It's called the grace of God.

 

[AustinC]

Austin the fact you can not see the contradiction in what you say is shocking. You say God is sovereign then turn around and say He is not. Either God can in His sovereignty grant real free will or you are limiting His sovereignty. Is your version of God limited on His power and authority? Mine isn't.

You hold to a version of God's sovereignty but you deny His actual sovereignty as soon as you say He can not do as He chooses. Which is exactly what you have done. When you said NO to the question then you limited God and His sovereignty.

Quote me saying the bolded statement of yours or admit you are falsely claiming what I actually said.
What is correct is that you cannot imagine how I can be declaring God's Sovereignty when I say no to your silly question.
Your incapacity to understand is the fruit of your humanist philosophy.

 

[AustinC]

I agree if you mean by that that man is not sovereign and his free will is not autonomous. God does not set up a plan of salvation and then passively wait for each man to make his own sovereign choice which will determine his salvation. But I would think it obvious that if God said "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" it means that there is some kind of actual and serious "offer" which that people in large part chose to reject. We know that God had a sovereign plan in place which absolutely did and is still coming to pass - but my point is that for each of us, as we live our lives, we come to places constantly where we have a clear knowledge of what God's will is and a real choice as to whether to obey or disobey. And the Bible, and the Puritans, and Augustine, and the earlier Calvinist theologians and the later Calvinist preachers all said that we must obey God's commands and they preached in a way that indicated there was the actual possibility that we would not choose wisely.

The rejection is true of all humanity. In that statement, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people", we see that if God chose not to graciously save and radically ransom, not one person would choose God. Why? Because we are disobedient and contrary to God and His holiness. It is our nature by virtue of the curse which Adam invoked by breaking the Covenant.
Either God graciously chooses to ransom us or we are damned. This is the fate of man.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree if you mean by that that man is not sovereign and his free will is not autonomous. God does not set up a plan of salvation and then passively wait for each man to make his own sovereign choice which will determine his salvation. But I would think it obvious that if God said "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" it means that there is some kind of actual and serious "offer" which that people in large part chose to reject. We know that God had a sovereign plan in place which absolutely did and is still coming to pass - but my point is that for each of us, as we live our lives, we come to places constantly where we have a clear knowledge of what God's will is and a real choice as to whether to obey or disobey. And the Bible, and the Puritans, and Augustine, and the earlier Calvinist theologians and the later Calvinist preachers all said that we must obey God's commands and they preached in a way that indicated there was the actual possibility that we would not choose wisely.

God has set a plan for salvation and it is for all mankind. Those that trust in the Son will be saved those that reject Him will be lost. But for that to be just man has to have the free will to make real choices. God in His sovereignty has given man such a free will but some deny that God would do this. It is unfortunate that they want to limit God but that is what they have done and continue to do. Man does not have an autonomous free will sch that he can save himself but he does have the free will so as to trust the gospel and be saved by God.

 

[Silverhair]

It's called the grace of God.

And we know that we are saved by the grace of God because we believe the gospel message. You know hear, believe, God saves. If one does not believe then God does not save does He.

 

[Silverhair]

Quote me saying the bolded statement of yours or admit you are falsely claiming what I actually said.
What is correct is that you cannot imagine how I can be declaring God's Sovereignty when I say no to your silly question.
Your incapacity to understand is the fruit of your humanist philosophy.

Answer this Austin.
Q Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?
A No, it is not possible.

Do you continue to deny that God is sovereign as the bold text above shows. When you say God can not do something then you, Austin, are denying the sovereignty of God. You can continue to what you said until the cows come home but the truth is there for all to see. Own up to it Austin.

 

[DaveXR650]

I have noticed that the official documents that Churches use like the Westminster Confession of Faith don't make much effort to put forth arguments that can confound the reasoning of opponents. So if you look at chapter 3 point 1 of the WCF it says that God from all eternity ordains everything that comes to pass. Then it says that "though as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature". I don't see any effort made to reconcile these things by the original authors. They don't seem to care whether someone might come along and object on the grounds of some kind of metaphysical inconsistency. I have said before, and I still believe, that men in times past seemed to be able to accept the complete sovereignty of God (and in the case of pagans, even false gods) and at the same time see no conflict with the need to obey all commands with the idea that your choice to obey was your choice, and that it would truly have some bearing on blessing or punishment from God.

 

[AustinC]

Answer this Austin.
Q Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?
A No, it is not possible.

Do you continue to deny that God is sovereign as the bold text above shows. When you say God can not do something then you, Austin, are denying the sovereignty of God. You can continue to what you said until the cows come home but the truth is there for all to see. Own up to it Austin.

Folks, notice the fallacious reasoning of Sliverhair as he makes conclusions and then attributes those conclusions to me, when the conclusion is entirely Sliverhair's.

Of course Sliverhair is entirely wrong as he is forcing his humanism on God. There is nothing more to say as Sliverhair has exposed himself as glorying man while attempting to bring down God.

 

[AustinC]

And we know that we are saved by the grace of God because we believe the gospel message. You know hear, believe, God saves. If one does not believe then God does not save does He.

A perfect example of salvation by works, apart from grace.
Sliverhair, you are exposed.

 

[37818]

1 John 5:12-13, ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

 

[DaveXR650]

And we know that we are saved by the grace of God because we believe the gospel message. You know hear, believe, God saves. If one does not believe then God does not save does He.

A perfect example of salvation by works, apart from grace.
Sliverhair, you are exposed.

This was discussed in post 47 but Silverhair's answer above would seem to me to be a standard Christian answer if someone were to ask the question of why do you think you are saved. I would caution Calvinists on here not to become so adamant about emphasizing God's sovereignty that you are offended when someone says belief is necessary for salvation.

 

[AustinC]

This was discussed in post 47 but Silverhair's answer above would seem to me to be a standard Christian answer if someone were to ask the question of why do you think you are saved. I would caution Calvinists on here not to become so adamant about emphasizing God's sovereignty that you are offended when someone says belief is necessary for salvation.

I would caution you to read what he wrote and see that it is openly works salvation being taught. Actually discern what is being said instead of turning off theology while playing the role of Neville Chamberlain on this thread. Appeasement of unbiblical teaching for the sake of unity always results in heresy entering the body of Christ. It's time you took your stand and stopped trying to appease false doctrine. You are doing no one any favors by your words.

Belief is the effect of God's grace being extended to a dead man when God makes that man alive.

 

[AustinC]

Silverhair's answer above would seem to me to be a standard Christian answer if someone were to ask the question of why do you think you are saved.

What Sliverhair stated is the standard semi-pelagian teaching, common to the RCC, the Orthodox, and all who imagine themselves as the key contributors to their salvation. It is a graceless gospel that attempts to pull God off the throne and establish a co-rulership. It is awful theology.

 

[DaveXR650]

The problem is Austin, that if you describe saving faith as "an empty hand reaching out to receive a free gift" then it is difficult to call that a works based salvation just because someone doesn't fully explain how they came to have faith. Go back and read his statement in post 65. Do you really want to call a statement like that heresy? I do believe that it's the Holy Spirit that acts on a person an gives them a heart which will incline them to believe. But they still have to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Folks, notice the fallacious reasoning of Sliverhair as he makes conclusions and then attributes those conclusions to me, when the conclusion is entirely Sliverhair's.

Of course Sliverhair is entirely wrong as he is forcing his humanism on God. There is nothing more to say as Sliverhair has exposed himself as glorying man while attempting to bring down God.

Austin your words have caught you out. You clearly deny that God can do as he pleases.

Answer this Austin.
Q Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?
A No, it is not possible.

Are you now going to deny that you said this? You are struggling way to hard Austin. You deny the sovereignty of God and you refuse to see that you do.

 

[Silverhair]

A perfect example of salvation by works, apart from grace.
Sliverhair, you are exposed.

Looks like you do not trust the bible. Have you even read Ephesians 1:13 or perhaps Romans 10:9-13 or even Ephesians 2:8. Did you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong or did Paul make a mistake when he put pen to paper?

That you continue to deny scripture just shows you are being blinded to the truth. But the question is by whom?

 

[AustinC]

Looks like you do not trust the bible. Have you even read Ephesians 1:13 or perhaps Romans 10:9-13 or even Ephesians 2:8. Did you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong or did Paul make a mistake when he put pen to paper?

That you continue to deny scripture just shows you are being blinded to the truth. But the question is by whom?

What you think is irrelevant since you look with closed eyes.
Neither God nor God's writer, Paul, got anything wrong. But, your interpretation is purely humanist and is as bad as anything one could pick.
To you I provide these words:
*Matthew 15:14*
Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

I will not follow your blind teaching.

 

[AustinC]

Austin your words have caught you out. You clearly deny that God can do as he pleases.

Answer this Austin.
Q Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?
A No, it is not possible.

Are you now going to deny that you said this? You are struggling way to hard Austin. You deny the sovereignty of God and you refuse to see that you do.

LOL, I clearly deny your teaching and you are not God, though you seem to imagine you are. I call that humanism.

 

[Silverhair]

What you think is irrelevant since you look with closed eyes.
Neither God nor God's writer, Paul, got anything wrong. But, your interpretation is purely humanist and is as bad as anything one could pick.
To you I provide these words:
*Matthew 15:14*
Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

I will not follow your blind teaching.

You say "Neither God nor God's writer, Paul, got anything wrong." But if they did not get it wrong and you agree with what they say than that means you are wrong in your understanding. Finally you admit your error. Austin that is your first step toward understand the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, I clearly deny your teaching and you are not God, though you seem to imagine you are. I call that humanism.

Still will not admit what you said. Come on Austin as a Christian you are supposed to be honest. If you can't be honest with me then at least be honest with yourself.

Answer this Austin.
Q Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?
A No, it is not possible.

Are you now going to continue denying that you said this?