Can you know if you are "elect".

[AustinC]

If God in His sovereignty has decided that most will be lost they are lost not for sin but because God decided not to save them.

I bolded your fallacious thought.
God did not decide that most would be lost.
Man (Adam) decided to rebel and thus all are utterly lost. (For all have sinned...) They will not choose another Master except Sin itself. Man has doomed himself and is lost in his own pride and is consumed with himself as ruler.
If God did not graciously choose to ransom some, then no one would be saved.
God is under no obligation to ransom rebels. There is nothing good within the rebel heart that God would ever love. His ransom of you and me is purely a mysterious act of grace on God's part. This should humble us to our core being.
We share the gospel with the full knowledge that not all God's elect have experienced their ransom and we know not who those brother's and sister's are. We preach and we leave the calling and retrieving to God who alone can save.

 

[Marooncat79]

We are all born lost l, without hope, bound for hell and deservedly so

God who is rich in mercy decided to save some

 

[Dave G]

If you believe in the election of individuals for salvation my question is "How do you know if you are elect"?

Please read 1 John 2, 1 John 3, 1 John 4, and 1 John 5...stopping at 1 John 5:13, are the things described of one of God's children true of you?

Then by those things you can indeed know that you have eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

I bolded your fallacious thought.
God did not decide that most would be lost.
Man (Adam) decided to rebel and thus all are utterly lost. (For all have sinned...) They will not choose another Master except Sin itself. Man has doomed himself and is lost in his own pride and is consumed with himself as ruler.
If God did not graciously choose to ransom some, then no one would be saved.
God is under no obligation to ransom rebels. There is nothing good within the rebel heart that God would ever love. His ransom of you and me is purely a mysterious act of grace on God's part. This should humble us to our core being.
We share the gospel with the full knowledge that not all God's elect have experienced their ransom and we know not who those brother's and sister's are. We preach and we leave the calling and retrieving to God who alone can save.

Excuse me but are you not the one that keeps saying that God is sovereign and nothing happens that He does not decree. I find it amazing how you always try to walk on both sides of the street at the same time.

 

[AustinC]

Excuse me but are you not the one that keeps saying that God is sovereign and nothing happens that He does not decree. I find it amazing how you always try to walk on both sides of the street at the same time.

God decreed that Adam could rebel.
God decreed whom He would ransom out of that rebellion.

I find it amazing that you blame God.

 

[Silverhair]

God decreed that Adam could rebel.
God decreed whom He would ransom out of that rebellion.

I find it amazing that you blame God.

Austin do you not see that it is your theology that lays the blame on God, not mine. You have God as the determining factor of all sin and evil and then wave your hands and say not me.

You keep saying man can only know sin yet the bible disagrees Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

I agree that God has decreed who will be saved, it's those that freely trust in His son. Whereas the Calvinist version of God, as some would put it, is "totally absolutely 100% sovereign" so anything that happens or does not happen, He determines. So how or why is the man that rejects God held responsible for doing so as he is actually doing exactly what God has determined for him to do.
What is it that keeps us from seeing and savoring the Christ of all saving grace?
If you're a consistent Calvinist it's God. God is keeping you from seeing God and yet you're held responsible for not seeing God.

Answer this Austin.
Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.
As a Calvinist you would have to logically say, NO. But then you are denying the sovereignty of God.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well, yea, a gift, but not a decision or a choice. A gift:

I agree it's a gift but here's Owen. "That it is not the instrument of God is plain, in that it is a duty which he prescribes to us: it is an act of our own; and it is we that believe, not God." But then the next sentence he says "And if it be our instrument, seeing an efficiency is ascribed unto it, then are we the efficient causes of our own justification, in some sense; and may be said to justify ourselves; which is derogatory to the grace of God and the blood of Christ."

What happens is that some people take the first statement above and point out that faith is that part that YOU do. Others say, "Be very careful, because you are close to claiming that you justify yourself or at least assist in it." Owen goes on to say that justification is a sovereign act of God and faith supplies no merit or is no kind of causative action but it is something we do and it involves our will.

It is interesting that Owen himself says it is difficult to give a quick, accurate definition of faith. I think John Piper has a recent book out on saving faith and he has made a lot of people mad.

 

[DaveXR650]

God decreed that Adam could rebel.
God decreed whom He would ransom out of that rebellion.

Austin do you not see that it is your theology that lays the blame on God, not mine. You have God as the determining factor of all sin and evil and then wave your hands and say not me.

Some Calvinists do believe that God decreed that Adam WOULD rebel and could not have done otherwise. I don't believe that but I do think that we are all truly guilty before God and he would not be wrong if he did not save anyone.

 

[AustinC]

Austin do you not see that it is your theology that lays the blame on God, not mine. You have God as the determining factor of all sin and evil and then wave your hands and say not me.

God is Sovereign, therefore God did determine that both the angels and Adam/Eve could rebel against him. God did not cause them to sin, but God did determine that they could. God also determined that neither could do something to restore the break in fellowship with God except that God himself choose to restore whomever He willed to restore.

No blame laid on God, though it's clear you desire to blame God regarding this truth.

You keep saying man can only know sin yet the bible disagrees Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

Your quote provides you no argument for your claim. Why you chose this verse is odd.

I agree that God has decreed who will be saved, it's those that freely trust in His son.

Here you nullify God and glorify man. This is the great downfall of your position. You are a humanist.

Whereas the Calvinist version of God, as some would put it, is "totally absolutely 100% sovereign" so anything that happens or does not happen, He determines.

This is Biblical. Read the book of Daniel and tell us otherwise.

So how or why is the man that rejects God held responsible for doing so as he is actually doing exactly what God has determined for him to do.

*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What is it that keeps us from seeing and savoring the Christ of all saving grace?

Our sin. We love ourselves, not God.

If you're a consistent Calvinist it's God.

No, a consistent Calvinist says it's man.

God is keeping you from seeing God and yet you're held responsible for not seeing God.

*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Answer this Austin.
Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine?

No, it is not possible.

In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.
As a Calvinist you would have to logically say, NO.

Biblically I would say no.

But then you are denying the sovereignty of God.

Here is your fallacious reasoning once again.
Truly you cannot accept God's word and you are the person whom Paul is arguing against in Romans 9.
*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

 

[Silverhair]

God is Sovereign, therefore God did determine that both the angels and Adam/Eve could rebel against him. God did not cause them to sin, but God did determine that they could. God also determined that neither could do something to restore the break in fellowship with God except that God himself choose to restore whomever He willed to restore.

No blame laid on God, though it's clear you desire to blame God regarding this truth.


Your quote provides you no argument for your claim. Why you chose this verse is odd.


Here you nullify God and glorify man. This is the great downfall of your position. You are a humanist.


This is Biblical. Read the book of Daniel and tell us otherwise.


*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?


Our sin. We love ourselves, not God.


No, a consistent Calvinist says it's man.


*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?


No, it is not possible.


Biblically I would say no.


Here is your fallacious reasoning once again.
Truly you cannot accept God's word and you are the person whom Paul is arguing against in Romans 9.
*Romans 9:19-21*
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Austin I was going to make a longer response to your post but it really is not necessary.

I asked you this question:

Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.

Your response was clear: No, it is not possible.

So you are proving yourself to be, shall we say, less than honest. You claim that God is sovereign and He determines all things or as some would put it, is "totally absolutely 100% sovereign" so anything that happens or does not happen, He determines.

But then you turn around and deny that God can do what He wants. Why is that Austin? Anything you say from here forward has to be called into question as you seem to have a problem keeping your story straight.

 

[AustinC]

Austin I was going to make a longer response to your post but it really is not necessary.

I asked you this question:

Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.

Your response was clear: No, it is not possible.

So you are proving yourself to be, shall we say, less than honest. You claim that God is sovereign and He determines all things or as some would put it, is "totally absolutely 100% sovereign" so anything that happens or does not happen, He determines.

But then you turn around and deny that God can do what He wants. Why is that Austin? Anything you say from here forward has to be called into question as you seem to have a problem keeping your story straight.

LOL, your thinking is so retarded (yes I use that word in the correct context) that you imagine because I say no to your question, that somehow God is not Sovereign.
Your question is similar to asking "Can God create a being more powerful than himself?" The answer, of course, would be... no. That answer would not make God less sovereign.

So, your thinking is regressive, retarded, in its processing. Try actually thinking through your processing before making such a silly post next time.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, your thinking is so retarded (yes I use that word in the correct context) that you imagine because I say no to your question, that somehow God is not Sovereign.
Your question is similar to asking "Can God create a being more powerful than himself?" The answer, of course, would be... no. That answer would not make God less sovereign.

So, your thinking is regressive, retarded, in its processing. Try actually thinking through your processing before making such a silly post next time.

Austin do not be insulting, all it does is show that you are childish. Or perhaps you are scared of what the question shows you about the philosophy you follow.
The question I asked you, lest you forget, was not about His sovereignty but whether He in His sovereignty could allow for real free will and you said NO. That is not me questioning Gods' sovereignty that is you denying it.

The question is rational you just do not like what it points out about your theology. You say God is sovereign but your deny that He can actually be sovereign as it would blow a hole in your calvinism. You are just being willfully blind.

I did not say nor does the bible say that God is not sovereign your theology does that.

One thing I have noticed about many calvinists is that when they are confronted with the error of their theology they resort to insults or ad hominem attacks. Quite frankly Austin I thought I was dealing with a mature adult but I am not so sure. You may be an adult but not a very mature one.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

If you believe in the election of individuals for salvation my question is "How do you know if you are elect"? Or is it something we should even inquire about?

Totally Depraved man cannot do good, and does not desire to do good.

Born-again man can do good through the Holy Spirit and desires to be good even when he isn't. (See Romans 7)

If a self-proclaimed Christian is worried about if they're elect then that is evidence that they have been reborn and the Holy Spirit is working in them, and that thus they are Saved.

 

[AustinC]

Austin do not be insulting, all it does is show that you are childish. Or perhaps you are scared of what the question shows you about the philosophy you follow.
The question I asked you, lest you forget, was not about His sovereignty but whether He in His sovereignty could allow for real free will and you said NO. That is not me questioning Gods' sovereignty that is you denying it.

The question is rational you just do not like what it points out about your theology. You say God is sovereign but your deny that He can actually be sovereign as it would blow a hole in your calvinism. You are just being willfully blind.

I did not say nor does the bible say that God is not sovereign your theology does that.

One thing I have noticed about many calvinists is that when they are confronted with the error of their theology they resort to insults or ad hominem attacks. Quite frankly Austin I thought I was dealing with a mature adult but I am not so sure. You may be an adult but not a very mature one.

You asked this:
"Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature."

Your question is the equivalent of asking: "Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? "

In both instances the question is ludicrous, (retarded in its thought). You are expressing irrational thought and think your thoughts are intelligent. It's time you stopped such nonsense.

Your question certainly desires to cut out God's Sovereignty and replace it with human sovereignty (your philosophy is humanist at its core). That you cannot see this is more telling than anything else.

You keep attempting to bring God down. Why?

*Romans 10:5-21*
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[Silverhair]

You asked this:
"Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature."

Your question is the equivalent of asking: "Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? "

In both instances the question is ludicrous, (retarded in its thought). You are expressing irrational thought and think your thoughts are intelligent. It's time you stopped such nonsense.

Your question certainly desires to cut out God's Sovereignty and replace it with human sovereignty (your philosophy is humanist at its core). That you cannot see this is more telling than anything else.

You keep attempting to bring God down. Why?

*Romans 10:5-21*
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Austin the fact that you have to change the question to something that I did not ask tells me that you do not like what the real question says about your theology. It points out the error in calvinism, or at least your version of it.

I asked "Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.". You said "NO" that could not happen and your reason is that it would make them more powerful than God.That is a real stretch of bad logic there Austin. How does someone having a free will make them more powerful than God or even equivalent to God? Why does that question scare you so much?

Answer the actual question Austin instead of making up your strawman question. You already said God could not so tell me why a sovereign can not do as He wants to do?

You just can not or rather will not accept that a Sovereign God has actually given man a free will

God is sovereign but it is obvious (by your "NO" answer) that you do not believe that He is. You have to limit what He can and does do so that He fits into your calvinist box.

 

[DaveXR650]

It seems hard to get around the idea that we have a level of immediate free will and choice that is sufficiently for God to use to righteously judge us. And I say that with the understanding that whatever God does is righteous, yet at some level we can indeed understand what that is. The last sentence of the post 54 above, verse 21, shows real and actual choice. Every one of the posts on this thread talk about assurance of salvation or election as being evidenced by things like obedience. Always it gets back to a level where you must freely choose to do God's will.

So while we observe God working sovereignly, without consulting us, there are always things that we are to do at an immediate and personal level. And what we do at that level will result in pleasing God or angering God and may result in damnation or salvation. That is why the Puritans could sign on to a statement that said "any sin persisted in was damnable". We can take a statement like that and go metaphysical on it - could a real Christian ever do that? Is that a real warning or is that a hypothetical warning to help true believers avoid a situation that they couldn't really do? Or do we just take it as it is and guard ourselves.

 

[AustinC]

Austin the fact that you have to change the question to something that I did not ask tells me that you do not like what the real question says about your theology. It points out the error in calvinism, or at least your version of it.

I asked "Is it possible, for God to create a creature that He Himself does not determine? In other words is it possible for God to create a truly free creature, a creature where He Himself does not determine the decisions of that creature.". You said "NO" that could not happen and your reason is that it would make them more powerful than God.That is a real stretch of bad logic there Austin. How does someone having a free will make them more powerful than God or even equivalent to God? Why does that question scare you so much?

Answer the actual question Austin instead of making up your strawman question. You already said God could not so tell me why a sovereign can not do as He wants to do?

You just can not or rather will not accept that a Sovereign God has actually given man a free will

God is sovereign but it is obvious (by your "NO" answer) that you do not believe that He is. You have to limit what He can and does do so that He fits into your calvinist box.

I have answered you. I didn't change one word in your question.
You have made a humanist response and irrationally claimed I didn't hold to the Sovereignty of God by saying no.
I have shown you the foolishness of your question and why it is so foolish. There is nothing left to discuss on this issue. You show us your desire to bring God down and lift up man to the station of sovereign. No true Christian will agree with your thinking as it demeans our King.

 

[AustinC]

It seems hard to get around the idea that we have a level of immediate free will and choice that is sufficiently for God to use to righteously judge us. And I say that with the understanding that whatever God does is righteous, yet at some level we can indeed understand what that is. The last sentence of the post 54 above, verse 21, shows real and actual choice. Every one of the posts on this thread talk about assurance of salvation or election as being evidenced by things like obedience. Always it gets back to a level where you must freely choose to do God's will.

So while we observe God working sovereignly, without consulting us, there are always things that we are to do at an immediate and personal level. And what we do at that level will result in pleasing God or angering God and may result in damnation or salvation. That is why the Puritans could sign on to a statement that said "any sin persisted in was damnable". We can take a statement like that and go metaphysical on it - could a real Christian ever do that? Is that a real warning or is that a hypothetical warning to help true believers avoid a situation that they couldn't really do? Or do we just take it as it is and guard ourselves.

As ignorant humans, we imagine free will because we don't experience God stopping us. All I need do is point to Balaam to show you that God is fully against anything that would oppose His will. I can point to Job to show how God uses evil to accomplish His will. I can point to Habakkuk as well. I can point to Daniel, showing that all that God purposes comes true. The idea that humans have freedom is never ever taught in scripture. We are always captive under a master who rules over us. This is by God's ordained and often mysterious purpose.

I find the attempt to place man on equal footing with God to be anathema to scripture and an affront to the King. We all stand accountable to the King for how we address Him. I will not compromise in such a way as to try bring man up and thus tear God down.

 

[Silverhair]

I have answered you. I didn't change one word in your question.
You have made a humanist response and irrationally claimed I didn't hold to the Sovereignty of God by saying no.
I have shown you the foolishness of your question and why it is so foolish. There is nothing left to discuss on this issue. You show us your desire to bring God down and lift up man to the station of sovereign. No true Christian will agree with your thinking as it demeans our King.

Austin the fact you can not see the contradiction in what you say is shocking. You say God is sovereign then turn around and say He is not. Either God can in His sovereignty grant real free will or you are limiting His sovereignty. Is your version of God limited on His power and authority? Mine isn't.

You hold to a version of God's sovereignty but you deny His actual sovereignty as soon as you say He can not do as He chooses. Which is exactly what you have done. When you said NO to the question then you limited God and His sovereignty.

 

[DaveXR650]

I find the attempt to place man on equal footing with God to be anathema to scripture and an affront to the King.

I agree if you mean by that that man is not sovereign and his free will is not autonomous. God does not set up a plan of salvation and then passively wait for each man to make his own sovereign choice which will determine his salvation. But I would think it obvious that if God said "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" it means that there is some kind of actual and serious "offer" which that people in large part chose to reject. We know that God had a sovereign plan in place which absolutely did and is still coming to pass - but my point is that for each of us, as we live our lives, we come to places constantly where we have a clear knowledge of what God's will is and a real choice as to whether to obey or disobey. And the Bible, and the Puritans, and Augustine, and the earlier Calvinist theologians and the later Calvinist preachers all said that we must obey God's commands and they preached in a way that indicated there was the actual possibility that we would not choose wisely.