Can you know if you are "elect".

[Martin Marprelate]

The grace of God is in creation, the gospel, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, etc. Do you not understand that these things are there for all men not just some? I to get tired of repeating the same things all the time but when people continue to ignore the truth of scripture it is necessary to do so.

I find just the same.

While God reaches out to all men if they do not respond in faith then they will be lost.

I have previously written about 'Common Grace' whereby God makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, sends rain on the just and unjust, is kind to the unthankful and evil, and bbears with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. If such people do not respond in repentance and faith, they will ndeed be lost. But none of this is 'Saving Grace' whereby the Lord Jesus picks Zacchaeus out of a crowd or the opening of Lydia's heart to respond to the things spoken to her by Paul. Such people as these are our Lord's sheep. His Father has given them to Him to redeem, He has laid down His life for them, they hear His voice and they follow Him, He gives them eternal life and no one will pluck them out of His hand..

 

[Van]

Stop being evasive. Own it. Somewhere along the line you inject man's will into the equation for eternal life in heaven.

You not only reject such truths as:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 13

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

...you contradict those truths and inject man's will into it. It's the very foundation of your synergism and your anti-Calvinist crusade. Own it.

I stick to the truth, you are the one posting falsehood. You repeat the falsehood I believe we are born anew by human will, when I posted we are born anew by God's will.

Yet another post of disinformation, claiming my view is what it is not. It is God's will to credit our faith or not.

Romans 4:5 (NASB)
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

​

 

[Silverhair]

I find just the same.

I have previously written about 'Common Grace' whereby God makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, sends rain on the just and unjust, is kind to the unthankful and evil, and bbears with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. If such people do not respond in repentance and faith, they will ndeed be lost. But none of this is 'Saving Grace' whereby the Lord Jesus picks Zacchaeus out of a crowd or the opening of Lydia's heart to respond to the things spoken to her by Paul. Such people as these are our Lord's sheep. His Father has given them to Him to redeem, He has laid down His life for them, they hear His voice and they follow Him, He gives them eternal life and no one will pluck them out of His hand..

Saving grace is of the Lord but, and this you seem to miss, the grace of God is provided for all men so that they can turn and trust in Him for salvation. That is why God says we are all without excuse for not knowing Him. Why the gospel is said to be the power of God for salvation and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Your theological view tends to close off salvation to the vast majority of mankind and you think this shows the love of God because He picked out some that you think you are part of.

What does the bible tell us about who God wants to redeem

1Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I posted this on another thread here it is with some editing

What does the bible tell us about the use of the word "ALL"

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Now did Christ have all sin laid on Him or only some sin?

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

2Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.


Double Jeopardy is contrary to the nature, justice and love of God and that's why there is none.

The atonement of Christ is unlimited in its scope, but its full application is conditioned on union with Christ through faith. After all, it is said of the elect that they “were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind” (Ephesians 2:3); if the atonement was unconditionally applied in full, how could any elect person be under God’s wrath at any point after Christ’s death?

Now we know that Christ died for all (2Co 5:15) and we see here that He was the ransom for all 1Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,


Now we come to the verses that tell the tale. Here we see exception and distinction shown but not as you may think.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all (no exception) and on all (distinction) who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all (no exception) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

We find the same thing shown in 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Christ was the ransom for our sins (those that believe) but the ransom was sufficient to cover all (without exception) the sins of mankind.

 

[DaveXR650]

Christ was the ransom for our sins (those that believe) but the ransom was sufficient to cover all (without exception) the sins of mankind.

Sufficient for everyone, efficient for the elect is similar to this and allows you to be a 4 pointer or a 5 pointer. I think if you view salvation as being only a set plan where Jesus made atonement and then having set up faith as the condition required for application - sits passively and waits for men's decisions you have gone too far. But it bothers me the way some Calvinists present limited atonement. It's not just in the attitude of it where they seem almost gleeful to pronounce the woe of hopeless exclusion from salvation from before the beginning of time on most people but the fact that it's never mentioned that not all Calvinists see it that way.

 

[Silverhair]

Sufficient for everyone, efficient for the elect is similar to this and allows you to be a 4 pointer or a 5 pointer. I think if you view salvation as being only a set plan where Jesus made atonement and then having set up faith as the condition required for application - sits passively and waits for men's decisions you have gone too far. But it bothers me the way some Calvinists present limited atonement. It's not just in the attitude of it where they seem almost gleeful to pronounce the woe of hopeless exclusion from salvation from before the beginning of time on most people but the fact that it's never mentioned that not all Calvinists see it that way.

4 or 5 pointer Nah to many problems with that view for me. As for God sitting and waiting for someone to come to Him well that is actually what you see in the bible. Does He know who will trust? Of course, He's omniscient. He has set the condition for salvation and that is faith in His son. Actually when you read Ephesians 2:8 what does it tell us? We are saved by Gods' grace because we have believed. We went from unbelief to belief (trust in the Son) then God saved us. Romans 10:9 tells us the same thing, we have to believe before we are saved.

But God does not just sit back and passively wait for someone to just stumble across Him. The bible is clear that He is reaching out to us and this is done through creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message etc. Man really has no excuse for not knowing God

 

[kyredneck]

I don't want to get too off track but hey, it's my thread! I was thinking of verses like Romans 4:5 or Ephesians 2:8-9. A good explanation of "duty faith" that was easy for me to read was in Andrew Fuller's work called something like "The Gospel Worthy of all Acceptation". I think it just means that the general call or offer of the Gospel is real for everyone and while it truly is a duty to comply with it is also an act of grace and love.

I'm no fan of Fuller. He basically betrayed the Old Baptists with his smears and caused the split.

The Association of Historic Baptists » An Unworthy Gospel (Fullerism)

The Association of Historic Baptists » John Gill And The Charge Of Hyper-Calvinism

 

[kyredneck]

You repeat the falsehood I believe we are born anew by human will, when I posted we are born anew by God's will.

Why won't you own up to your free will soteriology? Why the evasiveness?

 

[AustinC]

4 or 5 pointer Nah to many problems with that view for me. As for God sitting and waiting for someone to come to Him well that is actually what you see in the bible. Does He know who will trust? Of course, He's omniscient. He has set the condition for salvation and that is faith in His son. Actually when you read Ephesians 2:8 what does it tell us? We are saved by Gods' grace because we have believed. We went from unbelief to belief (trust in the Son) then God saved us. Romans 10:9 tells us the same thing, we have to believe before we are saved.

But God does not just sit back and passively wait for someone to just stumble across Him. The bible is clear that He is reaching out to us and this is done through creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message etc. Man really has no excuse for not knowing God

Sliverhair, you have such a weak view of God.
Thank God he doesn't act like you desire Him to act or no one would ever be saved. If God did what you claim, you would never have been saved. You would still be fallen in sin. Thank God He doesn't act like you demand.

 

[DaveXR650]

'm no fan of Fuller. He basically betrayed the Old Baptists with his smears and caused the split.

Thanks for those references. What I know of Fuller is mostly because Martyn Lloyd Jones uses him as a reference in discussing Sandemanianism, which is another whole subject. But I have read "The Gospel Worthy of all Acceptation" and think it makes some good points. Who exactly are the "Old Baptists"? I thought the Particular and Regular Baptists split much earlier than the day of Fuller.

One thing Fuller brings out is the idea that the view that the atonement is a strict payment in the same way as you would pay a debt of money may be a flawed way of seeing it. In other words, if you believe that Jesus died as payment for a certain number of sins for a specific list of individuals in such a way that if one more individual or one more sin was included in this then Jesus would have had to actually suffer more. If that is your belief then the Atonement is truly limited and John Owen's argument is airtight. But if not, if the debt is of a moral nature or of an appeasement of offence then that argument is not so airtight - especially if the value of the sacrifice was immeasurable greater in value than the offenses of the guilty ones.

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable even discussing things like this. It seems we are messing in areas where we shouldn't tread and the only place it concerns us is to immediately obey whatever we hear and can understand without giving a thought to what anyone else is supposed to do.

 

[AustinC]

Thanks for those references. What I know of Fuller is mostly because Martyn Lloyd Jones uses him as a reference in discussing Sandemanianism, which is another whole subject. But I have read "The Gospel Worthy of all Acceptation" and think it makes some good points. Who exactly are the "Old Baptists"? I thought the Particular and Regular Baptists split much earlier than the day of Fuller.

One thing Fuller brings out is the idea that the view that the atonement is a strict payment in the same way as you would pay a debt of money may be a flawed way of seeing it. In other words, if you believe that Jesus died as payment for a certain number of sins for a specific list of individuals in such a way that if one more individual or one more sin was included in this then Jesus would have had to actually suffer more. If that is your belief then the Atonement is truly limited and John Owen's argument is airtight. But if not, if the debt is of a moral nature or of an appeasement of offence then that argument is not so airtight - especially if the value of the sacrifice was immeasurable greater in value than the offenses of the guilty ones.

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable even discussing things like this. It seems we are messing in areas where we shouldn't tread and the only place it concerns us is to immediately obey whatever we hear and can understand without giving a thought to what anyone else is supposed to do.

If God is Sovereign, truly and fully Sovereign, then Owens is correct. Now, if you wish to waffle on the Sovereignty of God, you may entertain the other views.

 

[Van]

Why won't you own up to your free will soteriology? Why the evasiveness?

Why won't you stop posting obvious falsehoods. Are you so far gone, you do not know truth from falsehood.
Are we fallen, predisposed to sin? Yes
Can we choose to save ourselves? No
Can we choose to trust fully in Jesus to save us? Yes.
Does God credit the faith of some as "righteous faith" and transfer them into the Kingdom of His beloved Son? Yes
You repeat the falsehood I believe we are born anew by human will, when I posted we are born anew by God's will.

Salvation by compulsion is demonic nonsense, God places before us a choice between life and death and begs us to choose life.

 

[kyredneck]

Who exactly are the "Old Baptists"? I thought the Particular and Regular Baptists split much earlier than the day of Fuller.

Fuller split the Particular Baptists. Gillites and Fullerites, basically.

 

[kyredneck]

You repeat the falsehood I believe we are born anew by human will, when I posted we are born anew by God's will.

If you agree with John 1:13 & Romans 9:16, then why your anti-Calvinism crusade? What's your beef with the Calvinists?

 

[Van]

If you agree with John 1:13 & Romans 9:16, then why your anti-Calvinism crusade? What's your beef with the Calvinists?

I am a defender of Christ's gospel and clearly and repeatedly put forth in scripture. I agree with Romans 9:16, whereas Calvinism claims no one wills to be saved. I agree with John 1:12-13, whereas Calvinism claims God does not give the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name. Calvinism says we are given the right to become believers after God makes us children of God. Not how it reads...

 

[DaveXR650]

If God is Sovereign, truly and fully Sovereign, then Owens is correct. Now, if you wish to waffle on the Sovereignty of God, you may entertain the other views.

From God's point of view I don't see how it would be possible for Him not to have a complete knowledge and a complete sovereignty in ordaining exactly who is going to be saved. But his argument in "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" hinges on viewing the atonement in a very specific way as far as actual payment of sin is concerned. I don't have a problem with his argument but I do see some harmful results in people that believe it. Some Calvinists turn the idea of God being sovereign in the scope of the atonement into a mechanistic transaction that has as an end result a group of people who, no matter what, are in fact already saved, and another group of people who have been predetermined to be and in fact are damned from the beginning of time. Owen himself said that the means of salvation are also ordained by God. So if you are giving people the message that all is set because God is sovereign you are misrepresenting God's sovereignty in terms of their salvation and that should be tempered.

 

[DaveXR650]

Fuller split the Particular Baptists. Gillites and Fullerites, basically.

OK. That makes sense. As Baptists, that's what we do.

 

[kyredneck]

I agree with Romans 9:16

No. You don't. You're injecting man's will into it when the only will mentioned is God's will.

whereas Calvinism claims no one wills to be saved

They probably get that from passages like Romans 3:11, you think?

I agree with John 1:12-13, whereas Calvinism claims God does not give the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name.

So, John 1:12-13 is a choice of your own will to be born not of your own will? Not.

Those receiving Him v 12 did so because they were born of God v 13.

 

[Van]

No. You don't. You're injecting man's will into it when the only will mentioned is God's will.

They probably get that from passages like Romans 3:11, you think?

So, John 1:12-13 is a choice of your own will to be born not of your own will? Not.

Those receiving Him v 12 did so because they were born of God v 13.

Note, folks, Kyredneck claims "it does not depend on the man that wills" is not in Romans 9:16.
He probably also claims Romans 3:11 reads no one ever seeks God. Also not how it reads.
The choice to believe in the name of Christ is our human choice, but that choice does not save anyone. Only those whose faith is credited as righteous faith, by the will of God, are saved.

 

[AustinC]

Note, folks, Kyredneck claims "it does not depend on the man that wills" is not in Romans 9:16.
He probably also claims Romans 3:11 reads no one ever seeks God. Also not how it reads.
The choice to believe in the name of Christ is our human choice, but that choice does not save anyone. Only those whose faith is credited as righteous faith, by the will of God, are saved.

You realize that no one on the BB agrees with you on this issue, Van. This teaching is strictly your view and no one else's.

 

[kyredneck]

The choice to believe in the name of Christ is our human choice, but that choice does not save anyone. Only those whose faith is credited as righteous faith, by the will of God, are saved.

Wow, Vanology is even more messed than I had imagined.