Chosen in Him Before the Foundation of the world

[Dave G]

No , its about ISRAEL!!!!!!!

No, it is about the children of God within the nation of Israel:

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 )

6) They are not all "Israel" which are of Israel ( Jacob ).
7) Neither, because they are the physical seed of Abraham are they all children.
8) They which are the children "of the flesh" ( physical seed of Abraham ) are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted fro that "seed".

What "seed"?

 

[Dave G]

who God has Judicially hardened because of there unbelief..that's it .

Agreed.
But there's far more to Romans 9 than I think you're seeing, Barry.

 

[Dave G]

Only Calvernism with its philosophy changes the clear meaning of the text s .

I wouldn't know, Barry,.
I don't subscribe to the teachings of John Calvin, just as you, I trust, do not subscribe to the teachings of John Wesley.

Let's stick to Scripture and what is plainly stated on the pages, shall we?

 

[Sai]

John McArthur is an example of a Strict Calvinist who is not a replacement theologian.

 

[Dave G]

No where does it say we lost the ability to respond to God when revalation is given

I agree, Barry.
Nowhere does Scripture state that mankind has lost the ability to respond when revelation is given.
So, according to this passage, who is this revelation given to?

" At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:25-27 )

 

[Sai]

No, it is about the children of God within the nation of Israel:

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 )

6) They are not all "Israel" which are of Israel ( Jacob ).
7) Neither, because they are the physical seed of Abraham are they all children.
8) They which are the children "of the flesh" ( physical seed of Abraham ) are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted fro that "seed".

What "seed"?

The Remnant of Israel, Paul, the apostles, etc. Jewish believers.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hello Barry,

We are born spiritually dead, and children of wrath.Eph2:1-3,unless and until we are born from above.
God has revealed some of the behind the scenes purpose of God;
2tim1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 1:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Those that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) respond to their "calling", Barry.
Why do you think that Jesus said this privately to the 12 and those that were with them?

" And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 4:9-12 ).

Questions from the passage:

Who are "those that have ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, Revelation 3:6, for example )?
Who is it that it has been given to, to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
Who are "them that are without" ( outside, see Revelation 20:14-15 )?

According to verse 12 above, why is it that people have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see"?

Why didnt the diciples believe or understand the Gospel when Jesus told it to them over and over ? ( That he would be crucified ect ) peter and the diciples dont understand the Gospel until the end of Luke ? explain that with calvernism.

 

[Dave G]

Why didnt the diciples believe or understand the Gospel when Jesus told it to them over and over ?

They did.
The ones that were not given to Christ by the Father in John 6, did not.
See John 6:63-67.

Here, try this:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

Why did the Pharisees not "hear" God's word?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Those that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) respond to their "calling", Barry.
Why do you think that Jesus said this privately to the 12 and those that were with them?
how many people had ears who Jesus spoke to ? They all had ears.

" And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 4:9-12 ).

Questions from the passage:

Who are "those that have ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, Revelation 3:6, for example )?
Who is it that it has been given to, to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
Who are "them that are without" ( outside, see Revelation 20:14-15 )?

According to verse 12 above, why is it that people have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see"?

luke 18
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Notice the diciples with ears but dont understand the death burial and resurrection even when explained to them .

 

[Dave G]

( That he would be crucified ect ) peter and the diciples dont understand the Gospel until the end of Luke ? explain that with calvernism.

Let's stay away from John Calvin, and stick to Scripture alone, shall we?

It wasn't that they did not believe on Jesus.
They did, and there was a reson why Peter and many of His disciples believed.

The Bible has the answer for that, Barry, not John Calvin:

" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " ( Matthew 16:13-17 ).

Jesus told Peter why Peter could confess that Christ was the Son of God...
Because His father had revealed that fact to Peter.

 

[Dave G]

Notice the diciples with ears but dont understand the death burial and resurrection even when explained to them .

Notice here that Jesus had to open their understanding, that they could understand the scriptures.
Until then, the truth of God's word was closed to them:

" And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." ( Luke 24:44-47 ).

But they still believed on Christ as the Son of God.
They still believed His words, as Peter said here:

" Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." ( John 6:68-69 ).

 

[Barry Johnson]

They did.
The ones that were not given to Christ by the Father in John 6, did not.
See John 6:63-67.

Here, try this:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

Why did the Pharisees not "hear" God's word?

Because they were not like the ' sheep who were following Yahweh ( hearing Gods words in the old testament) They were seeking to be Justified by the law . A hard heart does not ' want ' to hear . But it is self inflicted . They were trying to gain access another way , like a thief and a robber . Jesus is the only way . They did not want this way .

 

[Dave G]

A hard heart does not ' want ' to hear

All men have hard hearts that are closed to Him, unless He opens them, Barry ( Romans 3:10-18, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

No man loves Jesus Christ in and of ourselves ( John 3:19-20 ).

 

[Dave G]

I'm going to go back to cutting wood in my backyard, @Barry Johnson .
Please review my posts in this thread, and especially the word of God, and we'll talk later.

Good afternoon to you, sir.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Let's stay away from John Calvin, and stick to Scripture alone, shall we?

It wasn't that they did not believe on Jesus.
They did, and there was a reson why Peter and many of His disciples believed.

The Bible has the answer for that, Barry, not John Calvin:

" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " ( Matthew 16:13-17 ).

Jesus told Peter why Peter could confess that Christ was the Son of God...
Because His father had revealed that fact to Peter.

I have no problem with the father revealing truth in the Gosepls before the cross to his diciples . I have no problem with God drawing people before the cross and the giving of the Holy spirit. Of course had satan known the full extent of the Gosepl ( via the disciples knowing) He would not have incited those to crucify Jesus ..But to extrapolate this and say this is how God always deals with man is faulty reasoning. John the Baptist had the Holy spirit in the womb , we all do not have the Holy spirit from the womb for example. Another would be God ordaining the crucifixion from the foundation of the world this is a specific instance of occurrence. We dont assume therefore this conversation was determined also before the foundation of the world .

 

[Barry Johnson]

All men have hard hearts that are closed to Him, unless He opens them, Barry ( Romans 3:10-18, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

No man loves Jesus Christ in and of ourselves ( John 3:19-20 ).

Take Cornelius for example, read that and tell me he was regenerated before he had faith .

 

[Dave G]

We dont assume therefore this conversation was determined also before the foundation of the world .

I'm not a "Calvinist", Barry.

I don't hold that every action was determined by God from the foundation of the world.
But I do hold that God decided who to save, knowing that we all would become rebellious sinners and hate Him for commanding us to repent.

I don't assume anything.

I trust God's words ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )...
All of them ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

 

[Dave G]

Take Cornelius for example, read that and tell me he was regenerated before he had faith .

Was Lydia?
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

It works the same way for everyone that is saved, Barry.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, it is about the children of God within the nation of Israel:

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 )

6) They are not all "Israel" which are of Israel ( Jacob ).
7) Neither, because they are the physical seed of Abraham are they all children.
8) They which are the children "of the flesh" ( physical seed of Abraham ) are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted fro that "seed".

What "seed"?

My point was it is the Jew who is complaining not a Arminian gentile .

 

[Barry Johnson]

My point was it is the Jew who is complaining not a Arminian gentile .

The objector is the Jew who is seeing the gentiles coming in ( previously they had to join the club for three years get circumcision ect ) by Grace and the Jew who had the oracles , the law , moses ect are being Judicially hardened ect