Chosen in Him Before the Foundation of the world

[1689Dave]

no verse says this .

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.” John 6:47 (ESV)

 

[Barry Johnson]

Only the saved can believe.

Says no verse in the bible .

 

[1689Dave]

Says no verse in the bible .

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

Its not about the philosophy of free will and determinism . who cares about that ? what we want is what God said he has done freely .

But you must save yourself by applying it = you the man.

 

[Dave G]

I have already debunked your misuse of that verse. It does not say faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It says faithfulness is. Not the same thing.

With respect, the word in the Greek is "pistis", which means "faith", "belief", etc.

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

My Bible has it as "faith".
Therefore I trust the words on the page to mean what they say, that faith is indeed a fruit of the Spirit of God and not something we as men can exercise in order to gain His favor or to accept other gifts that He might have to give.

Just as faith is a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, which is authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) so it is the evidence of someone's being saved ( Hebrews 11:1 )...
If it were the means, then man could pull himself up by his own sinful bootstraps as long as he met all the other "requirements".

But it's not that simple, Mark.

We know from Romans 9 that God's purpose according to election will stand.
We know from other places why some believe and why some do not, such as John 6:64-65...
Because it has to be given to someone to come to Christ ( believe on Christ, Philippians 1:29 ) by the Father.

We know that some have "ears to hear" and others do not.
We know that them that perish ( the lost ) see the preaching of the cross as foolishness...

But we know that us which are saved see it as the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
You do see this when you read it, do you not?

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. "

Two groups...
Them that perish / them that are perishing ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ).
Us which are ( not "will be" ) saved.

 

[Dave G]

Because it pleases God to save those that believe. That's Gods sovereign choice to save those by belief.

Amen.
God chooses to save those that believe.

But belief of the Gospel is an indicator, not a determiner.
It is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( God's Spirit at work in someone ).
If it were a determiner, then that is not grace...

That would be God relying on something man does in order to save someone, and His choice would then be determined by man's choice.

There it is Barry...
The "knife edge" of grace versus works.
Man's efforts versus God's efforts.
Mix the two, and "poof", it is no more grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

 

[Dave G]

Who are you to argue oh man ?

Amen, Barry.
Let's look at that passage, shall we?

" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:19-24 ).

Here is what I see Him stating when He had Paul write this to the Romans:

19) Continuing from Romans 9:6-18, we see that Paul has developed something that God said to Moses in Exodus 33:19:
" I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".

So, Why does God find fault? Why does God condemn us for our sins, if He is the one who chooses?
The objection here is from man's point of view, arguing against God's choice of who to save and who not to save, as seen in Romans 9:6-11...the purpose of God according to election ( His choice of the sinner to salvation ).

20) Who are we as men to reply against God? A God that made us.
Shall the thing formed ( man ) say to God that formed him, "why have you made me like this?"

21) As an example, does the potter have power over the clay, of the same lump to make one jar or vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?
For one to be used as a washpot ( or worse ), and another to be used as a flowerpot ( or better )?

22) God, who is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known to all, has endured with much patience ( see 2 Peter 3:8-10 ) the lost...those "vessels" of wrath that were fitted to destruction...
Man, by his sins and love for them ( Romans 1:18-32 ), actively "fits" himself for destruction...and God, in His wrath, can decide to reserve us for everlasting punishment.
He is just, and we are unjust unless He justifies us ( see Romans 4 and Romans 8:33 ).

23) Why did He endure with much patience the "vessels" ( for the definition of "vessel" in this passage, please see 1 Peter 3:7 ) fitted to destruction?
So that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had prepared before-hand unto glory.

We didn't prepare ourselves by our belief, Barry.
He did it, and enabled us to believe.

See Philippians 1:29 for emphasis.

24) Those "vessels" are the believers ( us ), whom He has "called" by the Gospel ( see other references throughout the New Testament about "calling" and who the "called" are )...
Not just Jews, but also Gentiles.

 

[Barry Johnson]

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Does it say " the Natural man cannot believe the Gosepl when presented to him .? no besides the ' natural man ' is the same ' Carnal men ' in chapter 3 .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen.
God chooses to save those that believe.

But belief of the Gospel is an indicator, not a determiner.
It is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( God's Spirit at work in someone ).
If it were a determiner, then that is not grace...

That would be God relying on something man does in order to save someone, and His choice would then be determined by man's choice.

There it is Barry...
The "knife edge" of grace versus works.
Man's efforts versus God's efforts.
Mix the two, and "poof", it is no more grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

Believing is not a work according to Paul in the book of Roman's

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen, Barry.
Let's look at that passage, shall we?

" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:19-24 ).

Here is what I see Him stating when He had Paul write this to the Romans:

19) Continuing from Romans 9:6-18, we see that Paul has developed something that God said to Moses in Exodus 33:19:
" I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".

So, Why does God find fault? Why does God condemn us for our sins, if He is the one who chooses?
The objection here is from man's point of view, arguing against God's choice of who to save and who not to save, as seen in Romans 9:6-11...the purpose of God according to election ( His choice of the sinner to salvation ).

20) Who are we as men to reply against God? A God that made us.
Shall the thing formed ( man ) say to God that formed him, "why have you made me like this?"

21) As an example, does the potter have power over the clay, of the same lump to make one jar or vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?
For one to be used as a washpot ( or worse ), and another to be used as a flowerpot ( or better )?

22) God, who is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known to all, has endured with much patience ( see 2 Peter 3:8-10 ) the lost...those "vessels" of wrath that were fitted to destruction...
Man, by his sins and love for them ( Romans 1:18-32 ), actively "fits" himself for destruction...and God, in His wrath, can decide to reserve us for everlasting punishment.
He is just, and we are unjust unless He justifies us ( see Romans 4 and Romans 8:33 ).

23) Why did He endure with much patience the "vessels" ( for the definition of "vessel" in this passage, please see 1 Peter 3:7 ) fitted to destruction?
So that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had prepared before-hand unto glory.

We didn't prepare ourselves by our belief, Barry.
He did it, and enabled us to believe.

See Philippians 1:29 for emphasis.

24) Those "vessels" are the believers ( us ), whom He has "called" by the Gospel ( see other references throughout the New Testament about "calling" and who the "called" are )...
Not just Jews, but also Gentiles.

' Called ' ? there are two types of calling . The call of the Gosepl ( when a person.hears the Gosepl ..And the calling/ called after salvation to a particular task or service .

 

[Iconoclast]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) question is : When do we become in Him ? I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

Hello Barry,

We are born spiritually dead, and children of wrath.Eph2:1-3,unless and until we are born from above.
God has revealed some of the behind the scenes purpose of God;
2tim1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Iconoclast]

"Barry Johnson

My point is about Ephesians and that nowhere does it say we are ' chosen to be saved ' So when it says chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world ,we ask '' for what ' ?

To be Chosen In Him is the guarantee of salvation.
The Ungodly world is not chosen in Him.
You mention Romans8: here is a solid portion;
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[1689Dave]

Does it say " the Natural man cannot believe the Gosepl when presented to him .? no besides the ' natural man ' is the same ' Carnal men ' in chapter 3 .

How can he understand spiritual things without the Spirit?

 

[Van]

Again I appreciate your response. This is good bible study . Thank you .
Ok from the bible itself we know that before being in him ephesians 2 makes clear that we were outside of Christ , lost and without hope. So we know from the scriptures that no one is in Jesus christ until they are placed in him . We can also see in Ephesians how we get in Christ
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So this is the only means of being in Him .
As for the blessings we can see these only occur once a person becomes in him .
We see all over that the person who is not in him is certainly not blessed with spiritual blessing in heavenly places .
What we should expect to see if your idea is true is verses that say ' we were chosen to be placed into Jesus before the foundation of the world ' .
There are words in the bible that with a certain persuasion folks use to steer in a particular direction : Chosen , ordained , elect , predestined ect . But for example the word Elect is to service . Its always in context to doing something. It's never to be saved . Context is key here . Again in 2 thes 2 . 13 in context this is about reassuring believers that they haven't missed the return of christ and there not set aside to suffer the tribulation. Gods methods for salvation in the church age are through believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( as opposed to circumcision and the sacrifices ect ) . So from the beginning ( when Paul brought the Gosepl to them ) hearing that by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( set apart by the Holy spirit) they needing reminding that they are on course and they are not of those left to destruction.

1) Yes we agree, every human starts out (at conception) outside of Christ. This is I believe a consequence of the Fall.

2) The means of being "placed" in Christ is the action of God alone. Several verses make reference to it.
Romans 6:3, Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

3) I think "once a person becomes in Him" misses the mark, should read "once a person is placed in Him.

4) The blessings listed in Ephesians 1:4- are as follows:

a) Chosen corporately, i.e God's plan to redeem believers was formulated before creation
b) Those chosen would be justified, i.e. holy and blameless according to God
c) He predestined our bodily redemption at Christ's Second coming, i.e. our adoption
d) His plan bestowed grace upon those in Christ, thus from before creation
e) His grace provides forgiveness, which He lavished upon us in Christ.
f) He made known to us (via our indwelt Helper) the mystery of His will
g) Cumulatively these blessings prepare us for our eternal life with Him.​

4) We disagree if you think "chosen for salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13) does not refer to our individual election for salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hello Barry,

We are born spiritually dead, and children of wrath.Eph2:1-3,unless and until we are born from above.
God has revealed some of the behind the scenes purpose of God;
2tim1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Roman's 6.7
IN CHRIST before Paul? how so according to Augustines calvernism?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Roman's 6.7
IN CHRIST before Paul? how so according to Augustines calvernism?

No where does it say we lost the ability to respond to God when revalation is given . In fact the bible in so many places commands us to do just that ..Only Calvernism with its philosophy changes the clear meaning of the text s .

 

[Iconoclast]

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Roman's 6.7
IN CHRIST before Paul? how so according to Augustines calvernism?

They were saved before he was, that is what he was saying.

 

[Iconoclast]

No where does it say we lost the ability to respond to God when revalation is given . In fact the bible in so many places commands us to do just that ..Only Calvernism with its philosophy changes the clear meaning of the text s .

Maybe you could show with some direct quotes and your scriptural ideas?

 

[Barry Johnson]

With respect, the word in the Greek is "pistis", which means "faith", "belief", etc.

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

My Bible has it as "faith".
Therefore I trust the words on the page to mean what they say, that faith is indeed a fruit of the Spirit of God and not something we as men can exercise in order to gain His favor or to accept other gifts that He might have to give.

Just as faith is a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, which is authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) so it is the evidence of someone's being saved ( Hebrews 11:1 )...
If it were the means, then man could pull himself up by his own sinful bootstraps as long as he met all the other "requirements".

But it's not that simple, Mark.

We know from Romans 9 that God's purpose according to election will stand.
We know from other places why some believe and why some do not, such as John 6:64-65...
Because it has to be given to someone to come to Christ ( believe on Christ, Philippians 1:29 ) by the Father.

We know that some have "ears to hear" and others do not.
We know that them that perish ( the lost ) see the preaching of the cross as foolishness...

But we know that us which are saved see it as the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
You do see this when you read it, do you not?

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. "

Two groups...
Them that perish / them that are perishing ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ).
Us which are ( not "will be" ) saved.

Roman's 9 is not an Arminian in 2020 complaining about God sending people to hell hand picked before ( the frozen unchosen ) . No , its about ISRAEL!!!!!!! who God has Judicially hardened because of there unbelief..that's it .

 

[Dave G]

' Called ' ? there are two types of calling . The call of the Gosepl ( when a person.hears the Gosepl ..And the calling/ called after salvation to a particular task or service .

Those that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) respond to their "calling", Barry.
Why do you think that Jesus said this privately to the 12 and those that were with them?

" And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 4:9-12 ).

Questions from the passage:

Who are "those that have ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, Revelation 3:6, for example )?
Who is it that it has been given to, to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
Who are "them that are without" ( outside, see Revelation 20:14-15 )?

According to verse 12 above, why is it that people have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see"?