Christian Universalism?

[Jarthur001]

How can evil not be sin? What is evil except sin? Can you give an example of evil that is not sin or the result of sin?

Evil is what is called the "sin principle". One can interchange the words when talking about it, but for the most part evil is looked at as that force. Sin is shown to be in two ways. Sin expressions...to lie, ....to murder. Sin is also shown as a force...something that pulls at our lust and/or pride. This force is evil or the sin principle. To get a better understanding of this, you would need to know what sin is, and how evil came about to be. If God didn't make sin or evil, where did it come from?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Joe... the best answer so far, IMHO. God has a right to dispose of HIs creation as He sees fit. Many, like Marcia, think that a natural disaster (as it is so often refered to) is not evil? What about the *innocent* babies that are killed in a horrific way in such events? Marcia, how much calamity have you been exposed to? You should ask the parents and family of the victims. If you think calamity in various forms is not evil...... I think the KJV hits the mark, even though that is certainly not my prefered translation. I guess evil is relative in some people's eyes. As a medic, I've been exposed to all sorts of evil... I tend to disagree. I do not think God is unrighteous however.... we are the clay and He is the potter. He does cause all things to work out for the good of those who love Him. We see death in a different light than He does. God never creates evil in the form of sin... even if some of us seem to think some forms of evil is sin.

 

[Hope of Glory]

As was pointed out in a rather lenghty discussion elsewhere, both the Hebrew and the Greek have two different words that are translated as "evil". One is a moral evil the other is calamity (the opposite of peace or welfare). God states that he created calamity-evil in Isaiah. But, there is not a single place that I'm aware of that states that God created moral evil.

 

[Marcia]

Evil is what is called the "sin principle". One can interchange the words when talking about it, but for the most part evil is looked at as that force. Sin is shown to be in two ways. Sin expressions...to lie, ....to murder. Sin is also shown as a force...something that pulls at our lust and/or pride. This force is evil or the sin principle. To get a better understanding of this, you would need to know what sin is, and how evil came about to be. If God didn't make sin or evil, where did it come from?

Thanks for your thoughts. But my understanding of a Christian worldview is that evil is not a force. It does not exist of and on its own, but is rather the absence or rejection of good. Therefore, "evil" cannot be created. It results from the absence of good.

I would say that our sin nature "pulls at our lust and/or pride" or perhaps is embodied in our sin nature. There is not some force causing us or inciting us to sin other than our own nature (and desires arising from it), and other than Satan's temptations.

In fact, one of the distinctions of a Christian worldview and an occult and New Age worldview is about evil being a force. In the occult and New Age, evil does exist as a force on its own, though sometimes it is referred to as the "dark side" instead of "evil" (and "negativity" in the New Age, usually). In Neopaganism, this "evil" or "dark side" is to be equally balanced with "good" or the "light side," as exemplified by the balance of yin and yang (which many Pagans/witches use to symbolize this view).

Sin came into the world through rebellion against God -- originally with Satan, who then came to earth and tempted Adam and Eve, who chose to go against God. God made us with the ability to choose to go against him, but that does not mean he is the author of sin.

 

[Marcia]

Many, like Marcia, think that a natural disaster (as it is so often refered to) is not evil? What about the *innocent* babies that are killed in a horrific way in such events? <snip>...... I do not think God is unrighteous however.... we are the clay and He is the potter. He does cause all things to work out for the good of those who love Him. We see death in a different light than He does. God never creates evil in the form of sin... even if some of us seem to think some forms of evil is sin.

As Hope of Glory pointed out. there is evil in the sense of calamity, and evil in the sense of moral sin. I tend to not call calamity "evil" though I understand perfectly why some people do and what they mean by it. I just do not think that technically it is evil because I tend to think of evil as moral evil.

On the other hand, any calamity/disaster such as earthquakes, natural fires, storms, floods, etc. are all a result of sin, too, because the world was corrupted and tainted by sin when man sinned (see Gen. 3 and Rom. 8). So we can even say that such disasters are a result of sin although they do not contain moral evil in and of themselves.

So -- evil is sin or the result of sin.

 

[npetreley]

As was pointed out in a rather lenghty discussion elsewhere, both the Hebrew and the Greek have two different words that are translated as "evil". One is a moral evil the other is calamity (the opposite of peace or welfare). God states that he created calamity-evil in Isaiah. But, there is not a single place that I'm aware of that states that God created moral evil.

IMO, and although this is just my opinion I do believe there is Biblical support, sin is not a "thing" that can be created, but the lack of alignment with God. All God has to do to "create" sin is to allow a self-willed creature to do things his own way, which is not going to be in alignment with God's way. That's not God creating moral evil. That's simply the inevitable result when God stops doing the steering.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That's pretty much the outcome of the other discussion on it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

So has anyone checked out the web site I posted? Has anyone heard of tentmaker.org before? Just wondering. This guy seems to be pretty solid in His exegesis. Not that I agree with him.:tongue3: Looking through some of the articles he brings up very solid points of exegesis that I was not aware of. One is Matt 25:46. Comments upon the site? Take a little time to read and don't just give a quick reaction to universalism.... but look at what the guy has to say. I'd love to hear some arguments. One that I have with him is that he seems to think that a lot of the most popular translations of the Bible are in error. He certainly would not say that most any translation is without error.

 

[Marcia]

So has anyone checked out the web site I posted? Has anyone heard of tentmaker.org before? Just wondering. This guy seems to be pretty solid in His exegesis. Not that I agree with him.:tongue3: Looking through some of the articles he brings up very solid points of exegesis that I was not aware of. One is Matt 25:46. Comments upon the site? Take a little time to read and don't just give a quick reaction to universalism.... but look at what the guy has to say. I'd love to hear some arguments. One that I have with him is that he seems to think that a lot of the most popular translations of the Bible are in error. He certainly would not say that most any translation is without error.

Please don't remind me of this site! Yes, I know about it. The guy emailed me several times in the past. I forgot why or how he got into it with me. I have seen refutations of his arguments.

 

[Marcia]

Here is a page on Christian universalism with arguments refuting it:
http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm

Matt Slick of CARM had to close his universalist forum down. Here he says why:
http://www.carm.org/uni/uniclose.htm

 

[Paul33]

This is a great question and one I have been wrestling with because one of my friends is an annihilationist. They view sin as temporal, but I don't think we can look at it that way nor does God. Let me share with you what I believe the Spirit to have led me to.

We were created with life that would never end for the purpose of having dominion over the earth. Adam and Eve were created to live forever ruling over the earth. They disqualified themselves through rebellion.

God has made a way for us to realize what our purpose is, which is to rule and reign. This will take place in the 1,000-year reign of Christ, but it will also take place throughout eternity from the new earth.

So basically what one is doing is rejecting God's plan of salvation that would eventually put them back into a position humans were created for in the first place.

So they are really denying their eternal purpose, therefore their punishment would be eternal as well.

This was a great answer.

I believe that God did foreknow that Adam and Eve would sin.
He did foreknow that Christ would be lifted up.
He did foreknow that some would persist in rebellion anyway.
He did foreknow those who would be in Christ through no merit of their own and those who would be passed over because of rebellion.
He foreknew all of this and created the universe anyway.

It doesn't answer the question of why God would create a universe in which fallen creatures would be consigned to hell, but it sure does answer the question of whether or not God cared enough to do something about it.

If we are consigned to hell it is because we rejected our eternal purpose. We can only blame ourselves.

The other question will remain unanswered.

 

[Brother Bob]

Did God make Good? Anyone,

 

[reformedbeliever]

Sorry to remind you of the site Marcia. But thank you for the links. Very good reading. I think the study of contemporary theology is a necessary part of our being ready to give an answer... although universalism is certainly not contemporary. A very good teacher once told me that we are to be spiritual pathologist. We can not treat the diseases of false religions, without being able to recognize the germs.

 

[Rex77]

-----------------------
BB quote
Did God make Good? Anyone,
--------------------------

God Is good :tongue3:

 

[Brother Bob]

Didn't ask you that, there is God who we know is good and there is Good and there is evil. I ask you if God made Good.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I was already familiar with their site. Like I said, univeralists can see that "aionios" cannot mean "eternal" or "everlastin". So, they take Matthew 25:46, and properly see that it's not talking about everlasting punishment, and then just assume that applies to everyone. It's the polar opposite of those who see nothing but everlasting salvation or everlasting damnation in all the passages that are talking about a time of limited duration. But, just like those who don't see the passages concerning punishment of limited duration, universalists fail to see the passages that do talk about everlasting punishment.

They're polar opposites, and they get their doctrines from the same book, but they both only see the all-or-nothing approach.

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks for your thoughts. But my understanding of a Christian worldview is that evil is not a force. It does not exist of and on its own, but is rather the absence or rejection of good. Therefore, "evil" cannot be created. It results from the absence of good.

I would say that our sin nature "pulls at our lust and/or pride" or perhaps is embodied in our sin nature. There is not some force causing us or inciting us to sin other than our own nature (and desires arising from it), and other than Satan's temptations.

In fact, one of the distinctions of a Christian worldview and an occult and New Age worldview is about evil being a force. In the occult and New Age, evil does exist as a force on its own, though sometimes it is referred to as the "dark side" instead of "evil" (and "negativity" in the New Age, usually). In Neopaganism, this "evil" or "dark side" is to be equally balanced with "good" or the "light side," as exemplified by the balance of yin and yang (which many Pagans/witches use to symbolize this view).

Sin came into the world through rebellion against God -- originally with Satan, who then came to earth and tempted Adam and Eve, who chose to go against God. God made us with the ability to choose to go against him, but that does not mean he is the author of sin.

Marcia,

I would agree in someways. Sin Nature is used in place of the sin principle under anthropology as it relates to man. Apart from man, most will just use sin principle under hamartiology. But ..in the end we are talking about the same thing.

Now we are very close on our views, but you state yours one way, and I another. Evil was made, by satan..or this is my view. God gave satan a choice and in short order it was...Satan..you follow me and I will be your God....Or Satan..you can have your own way..and not follow me. Satan said...I will...I will.......I will....and took A PATH AWAY FROM GOD. This is what evil is. You said...not good. That is close to what I say. But I think the Bible paints a clear picture of paths. Any time you sin..your taking a path away from God.

Ok..lets move to the garden.

Adam was made..and he was made "good". Adam was bind to the evil path and only knew of the good path. Notice the tree is called...knowing good and evil.

God said...Adam...do not eat from this tree. You can do anything you want...but do not eat from this tree. Now Adam..if you eat from the tree...your saying you want your will over My will.

satan was there..wanting adam to follow him down that path. Adam didn't know of it as a evil path. All he knew was God said do not eat.

Adam ate...telling God he wanted his own will over Gods will. This opened the eyes so of adam to evil. Adam still knew of good, but the power of sin controled him now.


Sin is always like this. Being that we are talking about a man...we will use sin nature. Our sin nature is a controling force. I have tons of verse..but it is late and I need to go to bed.

anyway...sin is not a event alone. In other words...to murder is to hate...to wish one were dead...to think about killing them...to plan on ways to kill..and the action of murder itself. This whole path is away from God...not just the murder.

anyway..you see it as..."not good". which is close to..a path away from good...or God.


More to write on this...but i need to go.


In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

Did God make Good? Anyone,

No

God is Good and all goodness comes from Him.

 

[Marcia]

Jarthur, thanks for your post. I was not saying evil is "not good' but the absence of good just as blindness is the absence of sight. I am not denying evil, just saying evil is not a self-sustaining thing in and of itself.

I have to make these distinctions in my ministry to explain occult and New Age worldviews of evil to others, and these views are quite different from the biblical view. So I have to think about this stuff all the time.

Well, guess we got a little off the topic a bit.

I'm leaving for PA in the morning to speak at a conference, so I won't be able to come to the BB for a few days. :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Did God make Good? Anyone,
No

God is Good and all goodness comes from Him.

When God said to Adam thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was that good?

When God give all of His commandments were they not good?

He said when He created the earth and man all those things and said that it was good and very good, was that not good?

If not good then what was it?