reformedbeliever
New Member
Well, it seems this thread is getting off topic, although I love theodicy. Maybe someone should start a theodicy thread? Also, it seems we claim that the Bible is inerrant, and I know that needs to be qualified as "in the original autograph". Inerrancy may be an interesting topic... although i'm sure you could probably give me many previous threads of that topic. Its always good to have some new views however. 
This is from an e-mail of a fantastic theologian whom I respect very much. Please give his view of this topic some consideration. Thank you for your replies. I've enjoyed reading them.
Of course it partly depends on what Bible version you use as to how many times Hell is mentioned. Hell is sometimes used to translate the Hebrew sheol which means the grave world. It was a vague world of shadows because in the Old Testament days there was no clear teaching about the afterlife. There was just an awareness that there was something. The first real idea of an eschatological place of punishment is found in Isaiah 66.24. There the idea was of a great rubbish dump outside Jerusalem on which the bodies of those who had transgressed against God would be cast, a place where the maggots never died and the fire was never quenched (thus guaranteeing the permanence of their destruction). And there their corpses would be an abhorrence to all flesh. There is no thought of conscious suffering. The same idea appears to be repeated in Daniel 12.2 where the unrighteous will suffer 'shame and everlasting contempt'. This is really the same as being an abhorrence to all flesh. Again there is no thought of conscious punishment. But by the time of the New Testament concepts had widened. The idea of an afterlife and the resurrection of the dead had become prevalent. And at the resurrection both the righteous and the unrighteous will be raised (John 5.29). In the New Testament there are two words translated 'Hell' in the AV, Hades and Gehenna. Hades, like Sheol, is the world of the dead. It is therefore the sphere of the intermediate state before the resurrection. That there is some unpleasantness about the experience there for the unrighteous comes out in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16.19-31), for the rich man went to Hades. Lazarus went to be with Abraham and to enjoy the conscious presence of God. It is to be with Christ (Philippians 1.21-24). But the main emphasis is on the final resurrection and what follows. And it is then that men are sent to Gehenna. Gehenna is the place of destruction. It is likened to fire because fire is destructive. It is likened to outer darkness because it means being driven away from the light. Men gnash their teeth and wail when they are sent there because of what they have lost. And there also the maggots never die and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9.48). It is an 'another world' rubbish dump. It would appear that there certain levels of conscious punishment are meted out (Luke 12.47-48), but as some only receive a mild beating it is certainly not suffering the torments of everlasting consciousness in everlasting fire. On the whole the fate of the wicked is described as 'destruction', and the word used is the same as that used by Plato to describe annihilation. But if there is final annihilation we cannot avoid the fact that there are certain levels of conscious punishment prior to it. Much then depends on whether we accept the doctrine of the unconditional immortality of the soul. On that theory a soul cannot be destroyed and therefore any punishment must last for ever. But if we accept the idea that nothing is impossible with God, then He can destroy a soul, and that might well be what is in mind. The most vivid descriptions are found in the Book of Revelation. We must not tone them down, but it is noteworthy that the only ones said to suffer for ever and ever are Satan, the Wild Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 20.10). As spiritual beings of immense power they are not of the norm. Nor incidentally would fire make them suffer. So the Lake of Fire is a concept speaking of some kind of spiritual realities. It is noteworthy that the Beast and the False Prophet are said to be thrown in 'alive' (Revelation 19.20). This is in contrast with human beings who are said to be slain. The latter are raised at the resurrection (Revelation 20.11-15) but they are still spoken of as 'the dead', very much in contrast with the 'aliveness' of the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan. Thus it may be that we are to see the dead as finally 'destroyed'. The only other passage that tells us about their punishment is in Revelation 14.9-11. But it should be noted there that while they are tortured (that is treated as prisoners on trial) it is only the smoke of their torment that goes up for ever and ever. It may therefore be that they themselves are finally destroyed. 'They have no rest day or night' refers to their worship of the Beast. Compare Revelation 4.8 where the living creatures also have no rest day or night from worshiping God. Thus their different treatments. The reference to eternal punishment in 25.46 does not necessarily mean eternal conscious punishment. It is the quality of the punishment that is in mind rather than its length, although it is of course eternal in that there is no way back from it. Compare how eternal judgment does not mean eternally being consciously judged. It refers to the fact that the judgment is of God and will have eternal consequences. Thus eternal punishment will have eternal consequences but will not necessarily be consciously experienced eternally This is a very brief treatment of what is clearly an important subject, but to deal with every relevant verse would take a book.
This is from an e-mail of a fantastic theologian whom I respect very much. Please give his view of this topic some consideration. Thank you for your replies. I've enjoyed reading them.
Of course it partly depends on what Bible version you use as to how many times Hell is mentioned. Hell is sometimes used to translate the Hebrew sheol which means the grave world. It was a vague world of shadows because in the Old Testament days there was no clear teaching about the afterlife. There was just an awareness that there was something. The first real idea of an eschatological place of punishment is found in Isaiah 66.24. There the idea was of a great rubbish dump outside Jerusalem on which the bodies of those who had transgressed against God would be cast, a place where the maggots never died and the fire was never quenched (thus guaranteeing the permanence of their destruction). And there their corpses would be an abhorrence to all flesh. There is no thought of conscious suffering. The same idea appears to be repeated in Daniel 12.2 where the unrighteous will suffer 'shame and everlasting contempt'. This is really the same as being an abhorrence to all flesh. Again there is no thought of conscious punishment. But by the time of the New Testament concepts had widened. The idea of an afterlife and the resurrection of the dead had become prevalent. And at the resurrection both the righteous and the unrighteous will be raised (John 5.29). In the New Testament there are two words translated 'Hell' in the AV, Hades and Gehenna. Hades, like Sheol, is the world of the dead. It is therefore the sphere of the intermediate state before the resurrection. That there is some unpleasantness about the experience there for the unrighteous comes out in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16.19-31), for the rich man went to Hades. Lazarus went to be with Abraham and to enjoy the conscious presence of God. It is to be with Christ (Philippians 1.21-24). But the main emphasis is on the final resurrection and what follows. And it is then that men are sent to Gehenna. Gehenna is the place of destruction. It is likened to fire because fire is destructive. It is likened to outer darkness because it means being driven away from the light. Men gnash their teeth and wail when they are sent there because of what they have lost. And there also the maggots never die and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9.48). It is an 'another world' rubbish dump. It would appear that there certain levels of conscious punishment are meted out (Luke 12.47-48), but as some only receive a mild beating it is certainly not suffering the torments of everlasting consciousness in everlasting fire. On the whole the fate of the wicked is described as 'destruction', and the word used is the same as that used by Plato to describe annihilation. But if there is final annihilation we cannot avoid the fact that there are certain levels of conscious punishment prior to it. Much then depends on whether we accept the doctrine of the unconditional immortality of the soul. On that theory a soul cannot be destroyed and therefore any punishment must last for ever. But if we accept the idea that nothing is impossible with God, then He can destroy a soul, and that might well be what is in mind. The most vivid descriptions are found in the Book of Revelation. We must not tone them down, but it is noteworthy that the only ones said to suffer for ever and ever are Satan, the Wild Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 20.10). As spiritual beings of immense power they are not of the norm. Nor incidentally would fire make them suffer. So the Lake of Fire is a concept speaking of some kind of spiritual realities. It is noteworthy that the Beast and the False Prophet are said to be thrown in 'alive' (Revelation 19.20). This is in contrast with human beings who are said to be slain. The latter are raised at the resurrection (Revelation 20.11-15) but they are still spoken of as 'the dead', very much in contrast with the 'aliveness' of the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan. Thus it may be that we are to see the dead as finally 'destroyed'. The only other passage that tells us about their punishment is in Revelation 14.9-11. But it should be noted there that while they are tortured (that is treated as prisoners on trial) it is only the smoke of their torment that goes up for ever and ever. It may therefore be that they themselves are finally destroyed. 'They have no rest day or night' refers to their worship of the Beast. Compare Revelation 4.8 where the living creatures also have no rest day or night from worshiping God. Thus their different treatments. The reference to eternal punishment in 25.46 does not necessarily mean eternal conscious punishment. It is the quality of the punishment that is in mind rather than its length, although it is of course eternal in that there is no way back from it. Compare how eternal judgment does not mean eternally being consciously judged. It refers to the fact that the judgment is of God and will have eternal consequences. Thus eternal punishment will have eternal consequences but will not necessarily be consciously experienced eternally This is a very brief treatment of what is clearly an important subject, but to deal with every relevant verse would take a book.
