Coptic Christians

[Oldtimer]

I believe there are faithful Christians in the aforementioned denominations. I also believe there are unsaved folks attending our churches...often every week.

Salvation is far simpler than we make it out to be.

Luke 23:40-43 (KJV)

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These verses often come to mind, when I read discussions such as this one.

Salvation comes during that moment in time when a person:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9 (KJV)

If that moment in time for any person doesn't come about, then they aren't saved, regardless of the demonination, whether Catholics, Coptic Christians, or Baptists.

Lord, remember me.

 

[freeatlast]

They obviously do, but you seem to have a problem with them not additionally believing as you do.

So you agree that this is how to get saved?

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So you agree that this is how to get saved?

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption

They believe that one is saved by faith in Jesus. Since that's what saves them, it doesn't matter to me what else they believe. Why does it to you?

 

[freeatlast]

They believe that one is saved by faith in Jesus. Since that's what saves them, it doesn't matter to me what else they believe. Why does it to you?

So do you believe that faith is beliving that baptism and other sacraments are necessary for salvation as they do?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So do you believe that faith is beliving that baptism and other sacraments are necessary for salvation as they do?

No, and that's why I couldn't be Coptic or Roman Catholic. But they don't believe that sacraments alone save -- faith in Jesus is necessary. On that basis they are saved, as is anyone else.

 

[freeatlast]

No, and that's why I couldn't be Coptic or Roman Catholic. But they don't believe that sacraments alone save -- faith in Jesus is necessary. On that basis they are saved, as is anyone else.

If it is of faith then how can it be faith and sacraments and still be faith alone. Does not the adding of the sacraments negate faith alone.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If it is of faith then how can it be faith and sacraments and still be faith alone. Does not the adding of the sacraments negate faith alone.

I didn't say faith alone; they don't believe that -- they are not Protestants. But they do believe that faith is required; they don't believe the sacraments alone can save you.

 

[freeatlast]

I didn't say faith alone; they don't believe that -- they are not Protestants. But they do believe that faith is required; they don't believe the sacraments alone can save you.

Alright. So if you cannot be a Catholic or Coptic because they do not teach salvation the way you believe it, does that mean there is more then one way and they just choose another way? Do you believe that faith plus nothing is how to be saved or can works be added and still be by faith?

 

[kfinks]

I didn't say faith alone; they don't believe that -- they are not Protestants. But they do believe that faith is required; they don't believe the sacraments alone can save you.

Reminds me of this question: Are we saved by alone or are we saved by believing that we are saved by faith alone?

 

[rmodis]

Unfortunately, not much ground has been made in this conversation. When I find myself stuck answering hard questions such as these, I often have to use other questions in the hope of using the latter question to illuminate the former question. With this thought in mind, I have to ask this: "What is the object of their faith?"

People can have faith in nearly anything. I can have faith that my car will get me to the grocery store without breaking down. I can have faith that my dog will retrieve a ball for me. I can place my faith in a scientific postulate, theory, or law. I can place my faith in Allah, Jehovah, or even myself. I do not think that anyone here believes that they do not have faith.

I believe that the problem lies in where and in what they have placed their faith. Do they have a proper conception of who Jesus is and what He did for us while He was on Earth? Do they believe that He was the perfect Son of Man and Son of God who came to seek and save the lost? Do they believe that He was the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins? Do they believe that He is the way and the only way?

If their conception of Jesus is wrong, then they have placed their faith in a false Jesus and thus in a false god. He either is or is not the perfect lamb that was slain for our sins. He either can or cannot cleanse us by His own power. His sacrifice is either good enough for all who place their faith in Him, or it is not.

So, I place the question to you all, do they have the proper view on the person of Christ or do they not? I am sure that you all are much more qualified to answer this question than I.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Alright. So if you cannot be a Catholic or Coptic because they do not teach salvation the way you believe it, does that mean there is more then one way and they just choose another way? Do you believe that faith plus nothing is how to be saved or can works be added and still be by faith?

I've already answered that.

We are not saved without faith; all denominations believe that. The difference between them is how works figure in.

 

[preachinjesus]

I'm just curious here...what would everyone say about the following denominations of believers:

- Episcopalian
- Methodist
- Church of Christ
- United Church of Christ
- Lutheran
- Christian Church

Are people who claim Christ in these groups saved?

I ask because they all hold to similiar facets of theology and specifically soteriology as Catholic communions listed above. So what say you?

 

[Don]

Ya know, there used to be this big thing about "we all worship the same God." I heard this one guy ask, "who do the Christians say Jesus is?" To which the response was, "God in the flesh." Guy asked, "who do the Jews say Jesus is/was?" To which the response was, "a pretty good guy and a prophet." Guy then asked, "so who do the muslims say Jesus is/was?" To which the response was, "a prophet, but a lesser one than Mohammed."

Guy then asked, "so if the Christians say Jesus is God, but the Jews and the muslims say He's not, then how can you say they all worship the same god?"

Seems to me the same thing applies here: It's one thing to say they all say faith in Christ is what's required. But when one says "faith plus baptism," and another says "faith plus sacraments," and another says something else, then we have to ask/answer the question: Are we really all saying faith in Christ?

 

[preachinjesus]

Are we really all saying faith in Christ?

Yes we are.

 

[freeatlast]

I've already answered that.

We are not saved without faith; all denominations believe that. The difference between them is how works figure in.

So then if we follow what your saying then doesn't that mean that the JW's and Mormons are also saved as both claim faith in Jesus?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So then if we follow what your saying then doesn't that mean that the JW's and Mormons are also saved as both claim faith in Jesus?

What we were discussing was within a particular framework -- orthodox Christianity. You know that.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes we are.

Indeed we are.

You know, the questioning of the salvation of those outside the Baptist family that is going on in this thread goes way beyond what some are accusing the RCC of in other threads on this forum.

This is very disturbing to me. It's making baptists look like a cult.

 

[Don]

Indeed we are.

You know, the questioning of the salvation of those outside the Baptist family that is going on in this thread goes way beyond what some are accusing the RCC of in other threads on this forum.

This is very disturbing to me. It's making baptists look like a cult.

Didn't say "the baptist way" is the only way to get saved. Didn't mean to imply that, either. Ain't saying that baptists are the only ones with the corner on the truth.

Met a catholic chaplain once; name of Father Ryan (yeah, yeah; stereotype, but it's the truth). He took me to the side one time and said, "ya know, the baptist got it right about that infant baptist thing."

But ya gotta take a stand somewhere. If you believe that scripture says faith alone, then anyone who says faith, but also this, isn't teaching the truth.

Of course, if you think that muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god, then I guess the discussion's basically over.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Didn't say "the baptist way" is the only way to get saved. Didn't mean to imply that, either. Ain't saying that baptists are the only ones with the corner on the truth.

Met a catholic chaplain once; name of Father Ryan (yeah, yeah; stereotype, but it's the truth). He took me to the side one time and said, "ya know, the baptist got it right about that infant baptist thing."

But ya gotta take a stand somewhere. If you believe that scripture says faith alone, then anyone who says faith, but also this, isn't teaching the truth.

Of course, if you think that muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god, then I guess the discussion's basically over.

But more than that is being suggested in this thread -- that the Coptics, and others, are not saved.

 

[Don]

But more than that is being suggested in this thread -- that the Coptics, and others, are not saved.

As a general rule, I believe a lot of people that call themselves baptists aren't saved. That a lot of people calling themselves Christians aren't saved.

If your point is that it seems someone is saying that simply because they're coptics they're not saved, well, I'd have to agree with you and disagree with them. Do I think there are saved people in denominations other than baptist? Yes. But do I also think that anyone who adheres strictly to the statements of the coptics, or of the catholics, or the lutherans, or others--said statements that require something more than just faith--then I do have to question where they're placing their hope of salvation.