Who declares them "deformed?"
God certainly doesn't call them deformed. It is humans who judge other humans as deformed.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Death before the age of accountability
- Thread starter AndThisGospel
- Start date
- Status
God certainly doesn't call them deformed. It is humans who judge other humans as deformed.
Sadly he does...
I did not mean to make it sound as if they are less than, just picked a poor choice of words, how about those physically/mentally challenged?
AndThisGospel
Member
First of all he wasn't created. He was procreated after the fall by his parents, but his substance...his frame went all the way back to Adam.
The Pharisees were speaking of sin - as in transgression - a sin against the law. They blamed his blindness on transgression or his parent's transgression.
Now, why do we die? One, we are mortal. We die because of various reasons, but disease ultimately gets us. Why? Because we all share Adam's fallen life. We are multiplication of his life after the fall. This man was blind, not because of his transgression, but because he shared in Adam's fallen life. A life prone to disease, genetic problems and ultimately death.
The text does not say that God made Him blind....You are reading into the text.
He was created. God had to ordain that the sperm and egg come together in conception. God ordains whether a dominant or recessive gene will be activated. God creates.
You seem to argue as a Deist who considers God to be no longer active, but instead is silently observing.
God created the man with eyes that did not see. God did that.
Luke 8 we have multiple instances of non-elect, who don't know Jesus, who are healed by Jesus.
Demon-possessed man doesn't know Jesus, the demons do. The woman who sneaks to touch Jesus' cloak. The little girl who gets resurrected.
Jesus has different priorities rather the elect qualified.
Luke 9
46An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest. 47But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, 48and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Under elect only there is no greater all equal across the board among chosen. Some might swear the highest office is apostle, here is Jesus saying the highest office is the least among us.
Luke 9
51When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem; 52and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. 53But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. 54When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”] And they went on to another village.
If they not with Jesus and totally depraved deniers of Christ, aren't they already dead? Why would consuming them with fire destroy men's lives? Why did Jesus say he come to SAVE THEM?
Does not heScriptures teach that God Himself claims to be behind things such as blindness and deafness?
Exodus 4:11 Nasb
The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
You want to blur the lines between God ALLOWING and GOD DOING.
God ordained everything to happen as it happens. No problem there.
We all agree God ordains ALL THINGS.
HERE is your problem,
If you say GOD killed Jesus Christ, you win.
If God did not kill Jesus Christ then who did?
" Satan has nothing to do with God's design. Satan does not hold some part of God hostage. When God chooses to do something, it is all for His sovereign purpose and our opinion of God's purpose is irrelevant, short-sighted and childish."
You want to blur the lines between God ALLOWING and GOD DOING.
Is common sense the last thing elect folks get regenerated?
BEFORE it happns in our time, God already ordained it....
We can go to original Hebrew if you want.
King James:
11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
God made all the blind folks. Doesn't say he blinded them.
Certainly God can intentionally blind, mute, deafen ect.
Zack (john Baptist father) muted, Paul struck blind for example.
What needs to be cleared up is GOD ALLOWS vs GOD DOES. Folks here are saying if God allows it then he doing it.
God allows children to be raped, Are you saying God rapes children "for his glory".
I think your well intent in "humility" of Gods sovereign, mistaken with terms and taking a step in false humility.
I don't understand the "you win" comment.
How do I blur the lines? God uses his creation to accomplish his will. He uses Satan, the Jewish leaders, the Roman consul and soldiers, you, me, whomever he wills, to accomplish what he wants to accomplish.
I'm not sure why you are hung up on this.
I'd take it a step further GOD is OUTSIDE of time. IE before the foundations of world / creation itself.
AndThisGospel
Member
Oh, now you've left the context and jumped to something else. Okay, I'll play along....
Yes, God said that. Why? Because He is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has allowed fallen Lucifer to develop his brand of love, which is iniquity...i.e., self-love. Because He has allowed sin to flourish He assumes the blame until "the day of atonement"
All you have to clear up is GOD ALLOWS vs GOD DOES.
God does not want you to sin. That's why he commands you not to sin and that's why a sin is a sin.
But if you sin anyway, who's fault is that? You say well God ordained it? God wants you to sin?
No, God wants you not to sin. He certainly ordains what he is going to do with your disobedience but he did not want or make you sin.
James 1
13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
1. God does not want you to sin.
2. God doesn't make you sin.
3. God always gives you a way not to sin.
So you sin who's fault is that?
AndThisGospel
Member
Good question....
I say God allows...But there's a reason.
At the fallen Adam brought the human race under Satan's rule. Paul calls Satan "the god of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Jesus calls him, "the ruler of this world" John 14:30 Hence our, fallen world is based on his system of iniquity and not God's agape. Satan's rule is based on the principle of "for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage." 2 Peter 2:19
However in order to understand why God allowed Lucifer to develop his system of self-love, which contradicts God's agape love, we must go back to the creation of Lucifer.
I'm not sure there's really much difference in the doing/allowing distinction if it is all ordained by an omniscient deity.
Functionally, orchestrating a scenario in which you "allow" (with absolute certainty) your desired outcome to occur is equivalent to causing the outcome directly. It's only moving the ball back one space. It would be directly causing the antecedent conditions which will invariably lead to the outcomes vs. directly causing the outcomes.
In essence it's like pulling a trigger and "allowing" the bullet to kill someone.
The only meaningful way to draw a distinction would be to remove the orchestration element.
Functionally, orchestrating a scenario in which you "allow" (with absolute certainty) your desired outcome to occur is equivalent to causing the outcome directly. It's only moving the ball back one space. It would be directly causing the antecedent conditions which will invariably lead to the outcomes vs. directly causing the outcomes.
In essence it's like pulling a trigger and "allowing" the bullet to kill someone.
The only meaningful way to draw a distinction would be to remove the orchestration element.
AndThisGospel
Member
This is great...I'm popping the popcorn....Forget the movie....
Again, good questions...
When we sin, it's our fault. But God still ordained that we would walk in sin. If God did not ordain that we would walk in sin, we would have our life removed, be judged by God and receive the judgment of our sin.
However, God ordains that to some, he will pardon their sins and receive them unto himself through the atoning work of Yeshua, Jesus.
Perhaps you struggle with the reality that God is not held within time, but exists outside of time and space. I don't view your apparent dilemma as a dilemma at all.
God ordains salvation, He has decreed those whom tedeaith of Jesus made atonement for....
God is NOT saying that He is to get the blame, for Nothing aGod ever decreeses or allows is back to Him as agent of blame, as in doing sin or evil!
- Status