Death before the age of accountability

[Yeshua1]

Good question....

I say God allows...But there's a reason.

At the fallen Adam brought the human race under Satan's rule. Paul calls Satan "the god of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Jesus calls him, "the ruler of this world" John 14:30 Hence our, fallen world is based on his system of iniquity and not God's agape. Satan's rule is based on the principle of "for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage." 2 Peter 2:19

However in order to understand why God allowed Lucifer to develop his system of self-love, which contradicts God's agape love, we must go back to the creation of Lucifer.

This present Age is waiting on hold for theSecond Coming of Jesus, as God allows things to happen due to this being still a sin cursed earth, but when Jesus returns, that is all undone, and God will have exact reign on arth as now in Heaven!
God permits Satan tp do evil now, but still on His leash, and God will be righing all accounts one day!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure there's really much difference in the doing/allowing distinction if it is all ordained by an omniscient deity.

Functionally, orchestrating a scenario in which you "allow" (with absolute certainty) your desired outcome to occur is equivalent to causing the outcome directly. It's only moving the ball back one space. It would be directly causing the antecedent conditions which will invariably lead to the outcomes vs. directly causing the outcomes.

In essence it's like pulling a trigger and "allowing" the bullet to kill someone.

The only meaningful way to draw a distinction would be to remove the orchestration element.

Except that there are things CANNOT directly do as that would violate His Nature...

 

[StefanM]

Except that there are things CANNOT directly do as that would violate His Nature...

So he basically has the devil do the dirty work.

 

[Yeshua1]

So he basically has the devil do the dirty work.

No, He has the Devil allowed to do certain things in order to havHis grand plan worked out, but e never tempts nor forces satan or sinners to act evil/sinful ways.

 

[StefanM]

No, He has the Devil allowed to do certain things in order to havHis grand plan worked out, but e never tempts nor forces satan or sinners to act evil/sinful ways.

Distinction without a difference, IMO.

But it does raise an interesting question---why would Satan sin in the first place?

 

[utilyan]

When we sin, it's our fault. But God still ordained that we would walk in sin. If God did not ordain that we would walk in sin, we would have our life removed, be judged by God and receive the judgment of our sin.

However, God ordains that to some, he will pardon their sins and receive them unto himself through the atoning work of Yeshua, Jesus.

Perhaps you struggle with the reality that God is not held within time, but exists outside of time and space. I don't view your apparent dilemma as a dilemma at all.

You are partly correct, indeed it is our fault.

But according to your logic:

" Satan has nothing to do with God's design. Satan does not hold some part of God hostage. When God chooses to do something, it is all for His sovereign purpose and our opinion of God's purpose is irrelevant, short-sighted and childish."

If you have nothing to do with that design, that's scribbling in your innocence and blaming God.


Luke 23
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”


Acts 7
59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Romans 9
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,


This is typical Christian character.
Are you willing to ask God to forgive reprobates for what they do?
Are you willing to ask God not to even hold sins against them?
Are you willing to be damned, cursed and separated from Christ for the sake of your brethren?


Folks with the Holy Spirit have no problem saying yes. Can you?

 

[MennoSota]

You are partly correct, indeed it is our fault.

But according to your logic:

" Satan has nothing to do with God's design. Satan does not hold some part of God hostage. When God chooses to do something, it is all for His sovereign purpose and our opinion of God's purpose is irrelevant, short-sighted and childish."

If you have nothing to do with that design, that's scribbling in your innocence and blaming God.


Luke 23
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”


Acts 7
59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Romans 9
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,


This is typical Christian character.
Are you willing to ask God to forgive reprobates for what they do?
Are you willing to ask God not to even hold sins against them?
Are you willing to be damned, cursed and separated from Christ for the sake of your brethren?


Folks with the Holy Spirit have no problem saying yes. Can you?

God created Satan. God uses his creation to accomplish his ordained will. Satan does only what God ordains. Like Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Habbakkuk, so Satan fulfills God's purpose with His creation.

Not one thing that happens, both good and evil, is outside the ordained will of God.

"All things work for good, to those who love God, who are called according to His purpose."

This means that even evil is turned to work out for good by God's plan.

Why do you hate God for being in control of all things?

God asks us to pray that God might call all people to Him and redeem them. God is also sovereign and is under no obligation to redeem even one wicked human. I don't presume to demand that God do what I demand. God is not my personal genie that I command through prayer.

You seem to have your self on the throne and desire God to be your servant. Please repent.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Distinction without a difference, IMO.

But it does raise an interesting question---why would Satan sin in the first place?

What is the essence of sin?

 

[AndThisGospel]

But God still ordained that we would walk in sin. ...

That is heresy of the highest order. This is ridiculous.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." Gal 5:16

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous... 1 John 2:1

Jesus declared. "Now go and sin no more." John 8:1

"If you love me, keep my commands" John 14:15

 

[AndThisGospel]

God created Satan.

EXCUSE ME? Please tell my that you're only joking! God did not create Satan! That is a lie and it is unconscionable that you misrepresented God. Shame on you! Do a bit of home work before you make such a ridiculous claim.

 

[StefanM]

EXCUSE ME? Please tell my that you're only joking! God did not create Satan! That is a lie and it is unconscionable that you misrepresented God. Shame on you! Do a bit of home work before you make such a ridiculous claim.

Did he spontaneously emerge from a black hole?

 

[AndThisGospel]

God did not create Satan!

“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery tones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." Ex 28:12-15

 

[MennoSota]

That is heresy of the highest order. This is ridiculous.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." Gal 5:16

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous... 1 John 2:1

Jesus declared. "Now go and sin no more." John 8:1

"If you love me, keep my commands" John 14:15

No. If God did not ordain that we live, though we sin, we would all be dead right now.
That ordination that we should live, in spite of our sin, is called mercy and patience.

 

[MennoSota]

EXCUSE ME? Please tell my that you're only joking! God did not create Satan! That is a lie and it is unconscionable that you misrepresented God. Shame on you! Do a bit of home work before you make such a ridiculous claim.

What? Who else creates other than God?

I'll wait for you to show us who the other creator is.

 

[StefanM]

“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery tones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." Ex 28:12-15

If you believe that God is omniscient, then you must accept that he would know anything about the future of any creature he brings into existence.

 

[AndThisGospel]

That ordination that we should live, in spite of our sin, is called mercy and patience.

Your off on a tangent....

Here's what you said: "God still ordained that we would walk in sin. ..."

That's a lie!

 

[AndThisGospel]

If you believe that God is omniscient, then you must accept that he would know anything about the future of any creature he brings into existence.

That's totally different than saying God created Satan. Totally!

God created Lucifer...He was the seal of perfection in the day that he was created. God doesn't create junk. He, God, created free-will beings. He didn't create robots.

Lucifer was created, as was Adam, in God's image after His likeness.

 

[MennoSota]

Your off on a tangent....

Here's what you said: "God still ordained that we would walk in sin. ..."

That's a lie!

It's not a lie at all. The opposite of ordaining that we walk in sin is for God to kill us immediately.

We are sinners. We cannot, by our own power, stop sinning. We daily walk as sinners.

Only in Christ does God the Father not judge our sin and damn us to hell. Because Yeshua Christ took God the Father's wrath regarding our sin, we are pardoned in Christ.

The opposite of that is God crushing us and having his righteous and just wrath fall upon us with deadly force.

So, God ordains that we walk, even though we sin. Hence the phrase "walk in sin."

I can see how you misunderstood what I am saying. I am not saying that it pleases God that we sin. I am not saying that God wants us to sin. I am saying that God has ordained that we live, even though we sin.

 

[AndThisGospel]

I am saying that God has ordained that we live, even though we sin.

That's different....

 

[MennoSota]

That's different....

It's different only because you misunderstood me.
I take responsibility for the misunderstanding.