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Death before the age of accountability

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StefanM

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That's totally different than saying God created Satan. Totally!

God created Lucifer...He was the seal of perfection in the day that he was created. God doesn't create junk. He, God, created free-will beings. He didn't create robots.

Lucifer was created, as was Adam, in God's image after His likeness.

The Lucifer thing isn't even valid anyway. It's just lifted from Latin, not a proper name in Hebrew (which is what it would have to be to have been a proper name in the original text).

That being said, if you create something with 100% infallible knowledge that a certain outcome will occur, that's creating the outcome. Setting a timer on a bomb doesn't mean you can say the timer caused the explosion and not you.
 
You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. ...“You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; ....You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." Ex 28:12-15

Conclusion: God created a perfect cherub and named him Lucifer, which means "the morning star"....

Having stated that fact I have another question: Didn't God know that Lucifer would rebel and become Satan, "the adversary"?

Answer: Yes!

Question: Then why did He create him anyway?
 
Setting a timer on a bomb doesn't mean you can say the timer caused the explosion and not you.

Bad analogy.....God didn't create a bomb....Lucifer, a perfect being, became a bomb. That's not God's fault.

God took the chance when He decided to create free-will beings in His image and likeness. He knew that angelic perfection would fail, but He created him anyway. Why?
 

StefanM

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Bad analogy.....God didn't create a bomb....Lucifer, a perfect being, became a bomb. That's not God's fault.

God took the chance when He decided to create free-will beings in His image and likeness. He knew that I would fail and took provisions to address that failure.

It's not a bad analogy. It's just contrary to the usual knee-jerk "get God off the hook" responses.

When you are 100% perfect in omniscience, you know the result before you begin the creation.

In this case, God would know the result (Satan) before creating anything, no matter how "perfect."
 
It's not a bad analogy. It's just contrary to the usual knee-jerk "get God off the hook" responses.

God is not responsible for iniquity. That was Lucifer's creation or invention.

When you are 100% perfect in omniscience, you know the result before you begin the creation.
Yes, He knew....He knew that angelic perfection, and human perfection, would fail. Did both have to fail? No, but nevertheless He knew it would and that Lucifer would become His adversary.

So the real question is why did God proceed?
 

StefanM

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God is not responsible for iniquity. That was Lucifer's creation or invention.

Yes, He knew....He knew that angelic perfection, and human perfection, would fail. Did both have to fail? No, but nevertheless He knew it would and that Lucifer would become His adversary.

So the real question is why did He proceed?

With 100% omniscience, I don't see how you avoid responsibility other than just declaring it not to be so (which really doesn't do much).

Why? The answer is because he wanted sin to occur.
 

StefanM

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So you are telling me that God, a holy & righteous Gbeing, who hates sin created sin?

That's a terrible conclusion. Show me, using the Bible, that God "wanted sin to occur"!

Again, assuming omniscience and omnipotence:

Created the conditions for sin to emerge? yes.

It's the same concept with hell. Why do people go there? He wants them to.

If God has full knowledge and all power, things only happen because he either causes them directly or doesn't stop them. If he really didn't want a certain outcome to occur, he would stop it.
 
(God) Created the conditions for sin to emerge? yes.

Yes, God created free-will beings with the limited possibility to rebel against their Maker and His agape love. He knew Lucifer & 1/3 the angels would rebel, but He allowed it away. He didn't ordain it...He allowed it, but for a purpose.
 

StefanM

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Yes, God created free-will beings with the limited possibility to rebel against their Maker and His agape love. He knew Lucifer & 1/3 the angels would rebel, but He allowed it away. He didn't ordain it...He allowed it, but for a purpose.

Ordain vs. allow is meaningless if you have perfect foreknowledge.

If he did it for a purpose, that means he wanted it to happen.
 
He (God) allowed it (iniquity), but for a purpose.

I don't know about where you work, but where I work management is always coming up with ideas to make the business more profitable. Most know what they are really after is job promotion, i.e., climbing to the top.

The question is how do you know if an idea is good or bad? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean the idea will work in the real world. The only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop.
 

StefanM

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I don't know about where you work, but where I work management is always coming up with ideas to make the business more profitable. Most know what they are really after is job promotion, i.e., climbing to the top.

The question is how do you know if an idea is good or bad? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean the idea will work in the real world. The only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop.

Here's my turn to say bad analogy.

If God has 100% perfect omniscience, he knows EXACTLY how things will develop before he starts anything.
 
If God has 100% perfect omniscience, he knows EXACTLY how things will develop before he starts anything.

Yes, and He knew that if he created free-will beings, that some would rebel against the foundation of His government, which is agape love.

Lucifer found agape too restrictive. He wished to improve upon the lot the angels. So Lucifer came up with the idea of a u-turn agape. The Bible calls this iniquity. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self.
 

StefanM

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Calling God insane? Hmmm?

Anyway, let's say you're God, and you want to make free-will beings, but because the creation is based on "free will" you run the risk that your creation could turn against you. What do you do?

A deity in that scenario would be insane to create an outcome that would otherwise not occur in order to avoid that outcome.

If you're omniscient, you know don't run a risk. You know with absolute certainty.
 
If you're omniscient, you know don't run a risk. You know with absolute certainty.

He knew that free-will beings would be problematic....So He had two choices. Make us like robots or take the chance....He went with the latter.

Lucifer rebelled against God's agape love. He insisted that self-love was better than God's agape love. Again, the only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop and thereby expose the nature of sin so that future created beings would not be deceived by Lucifer's system of self-love.
 

StefanM

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He knew that free-will beings would be problematic....So He had two choices. Make us like robots or take the chance....He went with the latter.

Lucifer rebelled against God's agape love. He insisted that self-love was better than God's agape love. Again, the only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop. That's what God did and He did create anyway to expose the nature of sin so that future created beings would not be deceived by Lucifer's system of self-love.

You're missing the point. There is no chance with an omniscient deity. He knows everything that will ever occur with absolute certainty from before the first moment of time. With or without free will, the outcome would be absolutely and inescapably certain.
 
You're missing the point. There is no chance with an omniscient deity. He knows everything that will ever occur with absolute certainty from before the first moment of time. With or without free will, the outcome would be absolutely and inescapably certain.

No, it is you who are missing the point.

God knew sin would arise in the creation of free-will beings. He also knew that "sin is a deceiver". That's why 1/3 of the angels followed Lucifer. That's why our original parents fell.

The only way to ensure righteousness & immorality to future beings was to expose the fallacy of self-love (sin). Once exposed sin would not arise a second time. All will have witnessed that the love of self ultimately brings ruin and death.

Satan's rebellion against God's agape was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's love of self, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.
 
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