Denominational division

[FlyForFun]

If the bible does not address all areas of life then why does Paul refer to the scriptures as a thorough furnisher. If the bible doesn't address every situation I'll face in life, how can it be thorough? How can it make me mature?

You're (intentionally, it appears) confusing the issue. All Scripture is profitable to make us complete, but it's not a reference manual or an illustrated parts breakdown.

The Bible -- by itself -- is intentionally silent in some areas, for Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit and the Church as well, and the three togther work to bring us into conformity to the image of His Son.

 

[Enow]

If the bible does not address all areas of life then why does Paul refer to the scriptures as a thorough furnisher. If the bible doesn't address every situation I'll face in life, how can it be thorough? How can it make me mature?

As Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, our trust is in the Lord to be our Good Shepherd in leading us in the way we ought to go as He helps us to use the Word of God to discern good and evil in keeping the faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3: 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Timothy 4: 1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[RAdam]

First of all, if Jesus were threatening the members of the church of Thyatira with THE great tribulation (meaning the great last days tribulation) then what of those members then and since that died before facing it? He said He would cast them into great tribulation, but by your understanding of that verse He did not. Perhaps, just perhaps, it's not THE great tribulation, but a great tribulation.

Secondly, in keeping the Philadelphia church from the temptations, He isn't speaking about taking them out of the world. How do I come to this conclusion? Well, I'll use two clear passages of scripture and compare. 1) Jesus prays unto the Father in John 17:14-17 thus: "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil. They are not of the world even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." Here you have Jesus praying that the Father would keep the disciples from evil. How? By taking them out of the world? No, He directly prays against taking them out of the world. So God can keep some from evil without taking them out of the world. 2) 2 Thess. 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." The context there is the great deception which will take place in the latter day, and how many will believe a lie that they all might be damned. Then Paul says he gives thanks to God for them because God will keep them from this, or save them from this, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. They won't be deceived and fall away, they will be kept through the truth.

There are principles being taught here that do not include God flying His people out of here in order to avoid the bad stuff. In fact, the bible teaches the very opposite principle. Those that live godly shall suffer tribulation and persecution, not skip out on it.

The error of pre-trib rapture is a suprisingly nasty one. Why? It disarms Christians. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen this on a car: "warning: in case of rapture this car will be unmanned." Instead of preparing Christians for the fact that the end times will be rough but that Christ will destroy that man of sin with the brightness of His coming, we are telling Christians that they can save themselves from all the bad stuff through their own efforts. Kind of kin to works salvation in some ways and it saddens me greatly.

 

[Enow]

First of all, if Jesus were threatening the members of the church of Thyatira with THE great tribulation (meaning the great last days tribulation) then what of those members then and since that died before facing it? He said He would cast them into great tribulation, but by your understanding of that verse He did not. Perhaps, just perhaps, it's not THE great tribulation, but a great tribulation.

Revelation being a prophetic book of what was to come, God addressing each of those seven churches pretty much goes to show the types of churches before the great tribulation. AND if war was breaking out on all the saints, it stands to reason that the churches will not be reading this in the comfort of their so called churches to take those edification, thus a pre-emptive edification for examination and preparation when He appears to avoid all that follows in teh great tribulation.

So the addressing of those types of churches has nothing to do with the ones in the early church days for applying those edification. It was meant to be read and to be applied.... now.

Secondly, in keeping the Philadelphia church from the temptations, He isn't speaking about taking them out of the world. How do I come to this conclusion? Well, I'll use two clear passages of scripture and compare. 1) Jesus prays unto the Father in John 17:14-17 thus: "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil. They are not of the world even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." Here you have Jesus praying that the Father would keep the disciples from evil. How? By taking them out of the world? No, He directly prays against taking them out of the world. So God can keep some from evil without taking them out of the world. 2) 2 Thess. 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." The context there is the great deception which will take place in the latter day, and how many will believe a lie that they all might be damned. Then Paul says he gives thanks to God for them because God will keep them from this, or save them from this, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. They won't be deceived and fall away, they will be kept through the truth.

Jesus praying in the present time of His disciples as He has given them His words for their future is not to be seen as applicable towards Revelation as prophesying what is to come. A prayer request of that time which does include the time we are living in for those keeping His words... is not to ignore the moment when judgment falls on the House of God first. As Jesus prophesied as to how bad it will be before His appearing as many false prophets will broaden the way to God the Father by offering another door "besides Jesus Christ" or as the definition of anti-christ goes "instead of Christ", He declared that only a few will find it.

Surely you know of the many invitations to come to God by way of Mary, the departed saints, and even the Holy Spirit as the "go to" Person of the Trinity as they are running around Jesus Christ WHOM is the only way to God the Father in being the ONLY Mediator between God and man? This is the work of iniquity as they climbed up another way and ceased to be the chaste bride.

2 Crinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So we can see here the falling away of the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2) as it occurs in being slain in the "Spirit", seeking another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues, a continual filling of the "Spirit", an anointing as if that is seperate from salvation, holy laughter movement, Pensecola Outpouring, and the Toronto Blessings, any that preach another spirit to receive, even though they call that spirit, the Holy Spirit, they depart from the faith ( 2 Corinthians 13:5) of that one hope of our calling of that one drink of the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the one baptism of the One Spirit ; Ephesians 4:4-6 as they are complete in Christ Jesus : Colossians 2:5-10 and thus as witnesses of Him in having been saved so others can see why Jesus is the Good News: Matthew 9:17 & Galatians 3:14,26 & Ephesians 1;12-15 & Hebrews 11:1,6.

So there is a need for Jesus to judge the House of God first at His appearing for the foolish virgins to know how they have been foolish and yet finally do get the oil for their lamps as the prodigal son will lose out his inheritance for wild living but find that he is still son: so that Jesus may restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

 

[Enow]

There are principles being taught here that do not include God flying His people out of here in order to avoid the bad stuff. In fact, the bible teaches the very opposite principle. Those that live godly shall suffer tribulation and persecution, not skip out on it.

We are living it now. It is the complacency of not being awake and discerning that the many churches today are falling away from the faith. Jesus made this promise in John 14:1-3. I believe His word that He will receive me unto Himself so that where He is now with the Father, there I shall be in the House of the Lord forever. Kind of a hard picture to visualize in the keeping of His Word if He is coming back to set up His Kingdom on earth with the saints unless the saints were taken to sit and eat with Him 1st.

Matthew 26:29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Both Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 both shows judgment falling on the House of God and a supper prepared for the those that were ready.

Luke 13:28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Matthew 22: 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

By His grace, may you see that there are three harvests making up the Kingdom of God:

Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Below is not the actual first harvest reference for Jesus spoke of those believers sitting with the Old Testament saints.

1 Corinthians 15: 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matthew 27: 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The three coming harvests after His resurrection is what is being conveyed here as there are three watches, but the first watch has the supper where one sits down to eat.

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

So again the three harvests that is coming is.. pre-tribulation rapture: post tribulation rapture; and the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ when everything will be given back to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15: 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So the three meals that leaven the whole are the three harvests that will make up kingdom of Heaven.

The error of pre-trib rapture is a suprisingly nasty one. Why? It disarms Christians. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen this on a car: "warning: in case of rapture this car will be unmanned." Instead of preparing Christians for the fact that the end times will be rough but that Christ will destroy that man of sin with the brightness of His coming, we are telling Christians that they can save themselves from all the bad stuff through their own efforts. Kind of kin to works salvation in some ways and it saddens me greatly.

But the opposite can also be said of your view. As any believers are waiting for the Temple to be built where this 3 and a half years of peace will lead into the revelation of the antiichrist, they are disarmed in not discerning the times as many are falling away from the faith NOW as well as being tempted in this present world to sow to the flesh and reap corruption, thinking.. "I'll repent when the Temple is built".

The call is to be ready now and it is in that hope we are to lean on Jesus, trusting Him to be Our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour so that we may be found abiding in Him when He appears for judgment must fall on the House of God first.

1 Peter 4: 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

What happens if they obey not the gospel of God: they go into the great tribulation.

So there are plenty of references for you to see why I believe what I do, thanks to .....:jesus:

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Does John 17 apply to your denomination in the same way that you infer it does not when you answered TCGreek in this manner?

JSM17, Why haven't you answered this for me yet?

John 17 applies to those who belong to Christ, that they are one as the Father and the Son are one. That would meant that we are to be of the same mind and have the same teaching, the teaching of Jesus.

Christ built one church, not a bunch of churches that are divided and divided and divided. If some people divide from the teaching of Christ they are no longer following Christ. The only problem is this cannot happen according to the OSAS doctrine. Even if you are saved and teach things contrary to Christ you are still saved according to this teaching.

I am sure as an Ind. Fun. Baptist you do not agree with all of your Baptist denominational friends. Can you think of any Baptist denominations who teach false doctrine, yet are still considered saved?

Do you claim to be of the one true church?

 

[RAdam]

John 14:1-3 deals with Christ preparing a place for those He saved in heaven, not pre-trib rapture. To attempt to make those verses fit that false idea is a blatant twisting of scripture.

Jesus was about to leave them for a time. He would be delivered up to be crucified and would die a bodily death, his body laying in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. He is telling the disciples, "Let not your heart be troubled." Why? Because in the Father's house are many mansions and Jesus is going to prepare a place for them (and us). He will also come again to receive them (and us) unto Himself that where He is, there we shall be also. That's talking about heaven and the glorious inheritance that awaits the saints, not some secret rapture idea.

 

[RAdam]

"What happens if they obey not the gospel of God: they go into the great tribulation."

What about when Paul wrote of the second coming of the Lord Jesus unto the Thessalonians and told them that Jesus would return in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

 

[FlyForFun]

I am sure as an Ind. Fun. Baptist you do not agree with all of your Baptist denominational friends. Can you think of any Baptist denominations who teach false doctrine, yet are still considered saved?

American Baptist churches ordain women.

Is this "False doctrine"?

If so, are American Baptists saved?

 

[RAdam]

The context of 1 Peter 4:17 is the sufferings of Christians in this life. The Christians suffers here, but not after. So often we see the wicked living like the rich man, faring sumptuously every day. So often we see the faithful in Christ Jesus living like the beggar. But at bodily death that role is reversed. The saints enter everlasting life in glory, while the wicked are cast into eternal woe and misery. If judgement begin at the house of God, what shall the end be of those that obey not the gospel but eternal ruin? God chastens His children in love, but the others He shall longsuffer until the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God.

 

[RAdam]

Pre-trib rapture is really a theological house of cards. It's really built up on nothing and teeters and totters under intense study of the context of these scriptures and the rest of the bible.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I hate to saying to you.

Yes, Baptist have toooooooo many errors of doctrines, that I have seen them in America today. Are they saved? Only God knows them. I am sure that, many Baptists are truly saved, not because of they are baptist, but because of their faith and did follow Christ with obedience.

Look, there are about 300 different kinds of 'Baptist' organizations in America today. Why there are so many different organizations of 'Baptist' in America?

The simple reason is, divisions over the doctrines.

Early in my baptist life, at first, I was pretrib, OSAS, and premill. Now, I am posttrib, nonOSAS and amill. Why? Because, I have been studying Bible deep and God's Word caused my beliefs got changed. I have been realized that there are too many conflicts of Baptist's doctrine within God's Word. That why I am disappoint with baptists. Myself cannot understand why so many baptists cannot understand God's word, while many passages explaining so very clear and simple?

For example - Mark 16:15-16 telling us, Christ said that we should believe AND baptized SHALL BE SAVED. Isn't this verse difficult for you to read and understand? Then, why argue with Christ's words?

Secondly. I feel that Matthew chapter 24 and 25 are probably the mostly clear fundamental sound of Eschatology doctrine(teaching of end times), not only eschatology, also, it included soteriology doctrine(teaching of salvation).

Matthew chapter 24 and 25 covers on eschatology and soteriology, that chapters apply to ALL individuals of ALL ages, not just for "seven year of Tribulation saints" only, or "Tribulation Jews" only. It apply to us everyone throughout all ages. Matthew 24 and 25 teaching us that Jesus is coming again -one more time, not two times. Also, it teaching us that salvation is conditional. There are so much overwhelmed evidences throughout chapter 24 and 25 show us that salvation is conditional with warnings, no way that we can afford to ignore or neglect Christ's words.

No wonder why many baptists love pretribulation doctrine so much, because they dislike to hear strong sound doctrines with warnings, rathering they like to have their own itching ears from their own pastors, what they saying than what God's Word. That sad. That are the facts, I have seen today.

Paul tells us that we must go through much tribulations to enter the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

Understand, this verse is conditional, "enter into the kingdom of God" means that enter into the narrow road is hardship life to endure, and few who shall make it at the end - Matt. 7:13-14.

There is no rosebed for us that we shall escape from coming persecutions and tribulations, because Christ already faced them himself, so, therefore, we should follow His steps of his examples - 1 Peter 2:21.

Early Christians already faced many horrible persecutions and tribulations, many were killed because of their faith. We should be same of them today.

There is no "pretribulation" in Bible. Sorry to saying it. Because it simple teaching us that, Christ shall come again at once follow at the end of THIS present age. Then come next age to come is eternality.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

What ever the end-time event(s), my Local Church is united in winning souls to Our Blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus, to the Glory and Honor of God the Father and in the Holy Spirit. Yes we do vary a-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, post trib, pan-trib, and in the midst of Tribulation.
What ever the end-time event(s), it is better to go to heaven IN A CROWD then elsewhere alone.

BTW, about 1/3 of the denominations were founded to stop denominationism.

I didn't quit using American Money when I found out that there are so many denominations:

1¢
5¢
10¢
25¢
50¢
$1
$2
$5
$10
$20
$50
$100
American Express (multi-denominational)
Master Card (multi-denominational)
Visa (multi-denomination)
Checks

Denominations are NOT the cause of disunity among Christians.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You are funny.......

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pre-trib rapture is really a theological house of cards. It's really built up on nothing and teeters and totters under intense study of the context of these scriptures and the rest of the bible.

:smilewinkgrin:
I guess you all don't sing this at your church:

My Hope is Built on Nothing Less,
Than Scofield's Notes and Broadman Press!
:smilewinkgrin:

P.S. I was married to my Local Church's Pianist, but she died in 1999 of Cancer. So I married the Organist in 2002. But I had to switch sides of the church

I did send my Son down to the pre-school at the CoC down the street from my local church. The only thing he seems to remember about it is that he has a great love of and interest in: Dinosaurs. We were still reading him dinosaurs when he was in public school - then he would read them to me. So when He got a degree at OU (University of Oklahoma) in 2008 - his minor was Comparative World Religions. Major was Performing arts: Music & Drama Emphasis.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Your comment on CoC, which reminds me that I did visited Seventh Day Advent Church. That church always emphasis on creation so strongly. Strange, SDA didn't say anything on dinosaurs, huh?

In my opinion, being believe in dinosaurs, is a consideration that it is merge or compromise with evolutionism movement.

Sorry off the track.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

John 17 applies to those who belong to Christ, that they are one as the Father and the Son are one. That would meant that we are to be of the same mind and have the same teaching, the teaching of Jesus.

Christ built one church, not a bunch of churches that are divided and divided and divided. If some people divide from the teaching of Christ they are no longer following Christ. The only problem is this cannot happen according to the OSAS doctrine. Even if you are saved and teach things contrary to Christ you are still saved according to this teaching.

I am sure as an Ind. Fun. Baptist you do not agree with all of your Baptist denominational friends. Can you think of any Baptist denominations who teach false doctrine, yet are still considered saved?

Do you claim to be of the one true church?

If you will note I belong to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. We do not belong to a denomination such as yours. Each and every church is fully autonomous, and thus will have its own statement of faith, its own constitution. They are independent one of another just like the churches Paul started in the book of Acts on his three missionary journeys.
Yes, we are one in doctrine, one in unity. We have no divisions in our church. We subscribe to no denomination such as the COC does. But I can point to denominational differences within the COC itself to demonstrate that they are not one in unity, that there is disunity, that John 17 is not true among the COC, and therefore you are being hypocritical when you ask that question of TCGreek, you can't even properly apply it to your own denomination. Now, why is that? And why play the hypocrite?

 

[FlyForFun]

If you will note I belong to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. We do not belong to a denomination such as yours. Each and every church is fully autonomous, and thus will have its own statement of faith, its own constitution. They are independent one of another just like the churches Paul started in the book of Acts on his three missionary journeys.
Yes, we are one in doctrine, one in unity. We have no divisions in our church.

So.. not one person in your church disagrees with any other on anything?

My wife and I have been married twenty-eight years and we still disagree on stuff.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Pre-trib rapture is really a theological house of cards. It's really built up on nothing and teeters and totters under intense study of the context of these scriptures and the rest of the bible.

Obviously, there are scholars who know the Bible much better than you do who disagree. Part of the division comes when people make comments like this but do not know enough to make them. Pretrib Rapture may be incorrect, but it is certainly not a "house of cards." It is well supported theologically and exegetically.

 

[DHK]

So.. not one person in your church disagrees with any other on anything?

My wife and I have been married twenty-eight years and we still disagree on stuff.

My point is this. I can post a constitution (or perhaps it was a statement of faith) that every COC member must agree to, at least at this particular denomination of COCers. If they don't agree to it, they will be disfellowshipped. In our church to become members you must agree to both the statement of faith and the constitution, which is quite detailed. If you don't agree to it, you cannot become a member. Thus we are one in doctrine.

That doesn't mean we can't split hairs over insignificant interpretations of some Scriptures, which have been argued about since the beginning of the canon, and have never been resolved since and won't be until we get to heaven--not in our church, not in any church.
"The secret things belong to the Lord." God has not chosen to reveal all things to us."
Thus it is inevitable that we will have differing opinions on some things.