Destiny of the un-evangelized

[BrotherJoseph]

Anybody, build your case, biblically, to show that 'saved' always means 'bound for heaven', and 'lost' always means 'bound for hell'. Define, from the Bible, 'saved' and 'lost'.

Brother Kyredneck,

Salvation is experienced here in time and also after one dies. In that sense, there is a "time salvation", but it is not separate from eternal salvation, it is experienced in both time and eternity. If one does not believe the word saved always refers to "eternal salvation" (which I don't), they do not have to conclude there is a separate salvation called "time salvation". For example, Paul says, " Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Timothy 4:16). Now I think we can both agree that in this particular verse the word "save" is referring to the portion of salvation that occurs in time being saved from things such as thinking your unsaved by believing in the gospel, or keeping yourself from sin, but where we may disagree is I believe the scriptures make it clear that any and all accomplishment of salvation here in time can only be credited to the working of the Holy Ghost, not the flesh. This is why Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13). Do you believe the salvation experienced in time such as faith in the gospel, carrying out good works, etc is a result solely of the Holy Spirit working in you, or do you conclude your flesh or own will somehow accomplishes this working in cooperation with the Holy Spirit? If you believe the former, I agree with you, but if the latter, you will find yourself in contradiction to many scriptures.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are advocating 'time salvation' and I oppose that ideology.

Brother SovereignGrace,

I too oppose time salvation, if by it one means there are two separate salvations and/or if they mean they by their own human effort or will accomplish salvation here in time. There is only one salvation, and it occurs in both time and eternity.

You seem to be familiar with many old school Baptist doctrines such as Eternal Vital Union, and Time Salvation. May I ask what order you belong too and how you became equated with these doctrines?

God Bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You have not answered the man's question....from the bible now (not history) tell us why you oppose. I'm waiting.

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire and KY Redneck,

If you are or KY Redneck are really interested in why the doctrine of "time salvation" is unscriptural I suggest reading this short book http://www.mountzionpbc.org/books/boaz_salvation.htm

It is written by an absoluter Elder RH Boaz over a hundred years ago, shortly after the doctrine of time salvation first "hatched its egg" among Primitive Baptists in the 1890s and is filled with scripture, rather than "logic" that conditionalist often use to prove their doctrine of conditional time salvation. I too use to believe in conditional time salvation, but the Lord used this writing (and others) too help me realize the doctrine is not true, thus I now attend an "absoluter" Primitive Baptist church.

Is time salvation of works, or grace? If it is of works, then it is no more grace, but if it is of grace, then it is no more works. As we know from the Roman letter, works and grace cannot mix. They are not the same and are diametrically opposed. If salvation here in time is not of grace, then I submit that time salvation must be arminianism. Time salvation is humanism and time salvation is heresy if it be of conditional works. The Bible leads me to believe that all salvation, time and eternal, is of grace; nothing more and nothing less.

Finally, now if this Time Salvation idea was true, our service to God would be no better than that of sinners. We, like they, would only pretend to serve God, when in fact, we would only serve our own selfish ends to merit blessings and rewards, and if the reward is the incentive, I can see no difference in our works and that of sinners.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[kyredneck]

....they do not have to conclude there is a separate salvation called "time salvation".....

I'm beginning to resent your constant insinuations that I hold to two salvations. You have "time salvation" on the brain.

One salvation with two aspects. An eternal aspect in which you were totally passive and a temporal aspect in which you are active.

 

[kyredneck]

....You are advocating 'time salvation' and I oppose that ideology.

???? I don't even know what you all mean by the term. And you're skirting the question:

Originally Posted by SovereignGrace
...If you study in Mark 16 Jesus stated, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.....

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Kyredneck

Mark 16:16 states, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.". One does not have to read into this verse "time salvation".....

EGAD! I'M NOT READING INTO THIS OR ANYTHING ELSE WHAT YOU TWO ARE CALLING TIME SALVATION!!

I challenge you, answer the question:

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

 

[Scott J]

Romans 1 declares all men regardless of what they've heard... guilty. Nature declares God such that men are without an excuse for not seeking Him.

Romans 2 builds on that by declaring that even without the Law God has given man a conscience that alternately accuses or excuses him... but all the while convicting him of his guilt.


This is only a "problem" if you believe the false doctrine that ANY "deserve" to be saved or that God's saving of one somehow requires him to save anyone else. This is all part of the "fairness" argument that cannot be adequately answered from the Bible by non-Calvinists. The simple truth is that any who get hell are getting precisely what they deserved and being denied what they do not deserve while those who get heaven are altogether avoiding what they deserve and getting what they could never deserve.

 

[kyredneck]

....Romans 2 builds on that by declaring that even without the Law God has given man a conscience that alternately accuses or excuses him... but all the while convicting him of his guilt.

Hogwash. You're adhering to one of the lamest 'explain aways' of immediate regeneration there is. So many there are that just cannot accept the simple truth of Jn 3:8.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

These are DOERS of the law, and they're declared justified.

If you're hung up on 'their conscience bearing witness', compare it with this:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,

...or this:

16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: Ro 8

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I'm beginning to resent your constant insinuations that I hold to two salvations. You have "time salvation" on the brain..

Im sorry brother Kyredneck! I made assumptions based upon my experience with Primitive brothers in GA from what they taught from the pulpit and based upon what brother SovGrace stated you were advocating "time salvation" and because you had not denied that acquisition of his in a post (up until after I posted regarding the matter) thus I thought you adhered to this doctrine. This is actually a common belief among many of the Primitive Baptist churches in the Atlanta area and across the country for that matter. There was a split amongst the Primitive Baptist churches over this issue in the late 1800s early 1900s. As far as I was aware there are only Primitive Conditionalists (who believe in two salvations), Absoluters (who reject condtional time salvation and believe in the absolute predestination of all things), progressives (they use musical instruments and have Sunday schools , etc), and universalists (also known as "no hellers").

I do apologize for automatically classifying you in the first group of Primitives and I guess I just proved the old saying true on what they say about what "assuming" does to a person! I hope you accept my apologies.

One salvation with two aspects. An eternal aspect in which you were totally passive and a temporal aspect in which you are active.

I agree there is only one salvation, and it has two aspects of both here in time and in eternity afterward. Both aspects are entirely of grace. As far as the latter part of your statement of a "temporal aspect in which you are active", do you believe it is God working through a child of grace to achieve this temporal aspect? Also, do you believe all children of grace will believe in Jesus in time?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[kyredneck]

Are you here on the BB to put the Primitive Baptists in a bad light? Is that your goal?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

progressives (they use musical instruments and have Sunday schools , etc),

GOOD GRAVY!!!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I challenge you, answer the question:

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

Christ is saying all who believe on Jesus and are baptized will be saved from Hell, but as I said in a prior post, that does not mean that is the cause of them being saved. For example, I could say the following without meaning it causatively, "All who believe and have fruits of the Spirit shall be saved". This is a true statement is it not? But it does not necessarily mean that the cause of them being saved is believing and having fruits, rather these things are only the evidences of them being saved, in like manner baptism and belief in Jesus means one shall be saved, but is not the cause of the individual being saved, but only evidences of them having been saved.

Christ also says in the same verse, "but he that believeth not shall be damned.". This is referring to eternal damnation because scripture is clear all people who are born again after the resurrection of Jesus will believe upon Jesus, though not all through the means of hearing the gospel preacher as the instrument to produce this belief, nor does God need the gospel preacher to accomplish this as scripture tells us, "33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34). Notice this verse says "they (the elect) shall all know me" , but it also says, "they shall teach no more every man his neighbor...,saying, Know the Lord", this is because God through his Spirit sovereignly reveals who He is to His elect by putting the "law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts". This only explains how God is able to save one from every tribe, infants dying in infancy, the mentally handicapped and have them believe upon them, though they may have never heard the gospel as preached by a preacher and may even lack the mental capacity to do so.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

progressives (they use musical instruments and have Sunday schools , etc),

GOOD GRAVY!!!

Brother Earth,

LOL!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother Earth,

LOL!

Well....I'm so diametrically opposed to both.....Id never be content in a modern church. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But fellows.....this thread is supposed to be about the UN evangelized!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Are you here on the BB to put the Primitive Baptists in a bad light? Is that your goal?

Brother KYredneck,

Certainly not, I am a Primitive Baptist! I have spoken what I believe is a true history of the Primitives with their various factions and division and doctrines. The doctrine of conditional time salvation spread like wildfire after the heresy was introduced in the 1890s, and is held by most Primitive Baptist churches to this day. There are no historical writings on this doctrine prior to the 1890s and that is because it is a "new doctrine", thus proving it unbiblical (though the Bible alone without history also does that). All the Primitive Baptist churches near where I live adhere to some form of this doctrine, though not all to the extremes of other churches I have been to, thus I have to drive three hours to get to the closest "absoluter" Primitive church. I believe what I have written is true, what part do you disagree with?

If some Primitives hold to "conditional time salvation" that is a heresy as so for those that hold to no hell, and progressivism. I learned much from the conditional brothers regarding God being sovereign to regenerate sinners independent of the gospel, believe they are children of God, possess some elements of truth, but are in severe error as far as their beliefs as to how salvation in time comes to His elect.

Brother Joe

 

[BobRyan]

In an effort to save the Cal/Arm forum from the constant solitary posting and reply of one person, here’s a question:

What happens to the unevangelized (those who never hear the gospel)? And what are the implications concerning this and the doctrine of election?

Romans 2:13-16 says some of them are saved.
Romans 10:14-18 says that God reaches them through nature Ps 19:4

Before the cross "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really!"
The Spirit of God "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Romans 2:13-16 says some of them are saved.

Brother Bob,

What you have written above is the truth.

 

[steaver]

This is only a "problem" if you believe the false doctrine that ANY "deserve" to be saved or that God's saving of one somehow requires him to save anyone else. This is all part of the "fairness" argument that cannot be adequately answered from the Bible by non-Calvinists.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

I personally have not found any who believe or teach any such doctrine. It seems you have come across some who do. Could you please provide sources of those who teach this?