Discussion.

[Christforums]

I believe Calvinism would have been much better had it began by going back to Scrioture instead of reforming Roman Catholic doctrine (particularly with the meaning of Christ's death). This was a major complaint by those outside of Calvinism at the time, so it's nothing new. But there is simply too much baggage carried forward.

To be fair, we have to be very careful with Judiasm as well. Technically Christianity is older than Judiasm. Judiasm began after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD as it was necessary because the Hebrew faith centered on the Temple which required a shift towards the teachings of the Pharisees (rabbis rather than priests, the law belonging to the people rather than the Temple).

Protestant by definition in historical context was the protesting against the Roman Catholic church. The Reformation by definition was the reformation or reforming of doctrine rather than the deliberate destruction of Roman Catholicism for all intents and purposes.

Interestingly, I too researched and there is a distinction in Judaism Temple and Post Temple Judaism. Judaism by definition was the religion of the Jews and if such definition is accepted predates Christianity by millenniums. Followers of Jesus appeared during Temple worship, and eventually churches became places of worship among others. Nothing new really (Apollos or Paul etc), considering the vast worship occurring in Israel during the reign of Solomon. Never heard anybody claim Christianity was older and certainly not more mature than Judaism. Especially considering the teething problems of Acts and the reciprocal behavior of new churches after planting following in the footsteps of the churches of Acts. However, was refreshing to hear somebody else mention Western influence, most certainly the Greeks had major influence in all our theological mindfulness today, especially when considering the Septuagint manuscripts from which we translate and interpret both the old and new testaments.

If doctrinal transmission was used as the basis for age then Judaism could be clearly defined more elderly. For example, whatever happened to the ana-baptist? Doctrinal transmission can be used to trace them to the Amish and Quakers - true sects of Christianity.

Shalom

 

[JonC]

Protestant by definition was protesting the Roman Catholic church. The Reformation by definition was the reformation or reforming of doctrine rather than the deliberate destruction of Roman Catholicism.

Interestingly, I too researched and there is a distinction in Judaism Temple and Post Temple Judaism. Judaism by definition was the religion of the Jews and if such definition is accepted predates Christianity by millenniums. Followers of Jesus appeared during Temple worship, and eventually churches became places of worship among others. Nothing new really, considering the vast worship occurring in Israel during the reign of Solomon. Never heard anybody claim Christianity was older and certainly not more mature than Judaism. However, was refreshing to hear somebody else mention the Western influence, most certainly the Greeks had major influence in all our theological mindfulness today, especially when considering the Septuagint manuscripts from which we translate and interpret both the old and new testaments.

If doctrinal transmission was used as the basis for age then Judaism could be clearly defined more elderly. For example, whatever happened to the ana-baptist? Doctrinal transmission can be used to trace them to the Amish and Quakers - true sects of Christianity.

Shalom

I always appreciated those "Protestant churches" that were never a part of the Roman Catholic Church more than the Reformers.

"Protestant" refers to the Protestant movement (which included Christians that were never a part of the Catholic Church) while "Reformed" refers to those that sought to reform Romam Catholic Church and the resulting doctrine.

I think a lot more, primarily from the Pharisees point of view (they were equivalent to our ministers, where we live) got translated into Judiasm. The Sadducees died out.

They carried over synagogues, which is like our churches. This is proper as in the 1st century it was common knowledge the Temple had become corrupt. This is one group (the Sadducees) that Jesus rarely mentioned. The synagogue was the center of worship for most Jews, but the Temple the center of their faith.

Baptists are a blend of Reformed (Roman Catholic reformed doctrine) and Anabaptist theology. Each sides more to one side or the other.

We had a lot of Amish were I lived in Tennessee, and Mennonites where I live now. Modern Mennonites have moved more away from older theology but also carry a lot forward.

 

[JonC]

In Eastern thought free will never negates divine sovereignty (Hebrew, Christian faiths) or fate (paganism).

In paganism Oedipus acted of his own free will, and this was encompassed by the fate he tried to escape.

In Christianity we see something similar. Man owns his own will, freely makes his own decisions, but the outcome belongs to God.

This issue of free will vs God's will is a distinctly western problem. This is why neither camp can win via Scripture (Scripture does not assume a Western mindset).

 

[Christforums]

Baptists are a blend of Reformed (Roman Catholic reformed doctrine) and Anabaptist theology. Each sides more to one side or the other.

I believe the theological term is Apostolic doctrine concerning transmission rather than Apostolic Succession (by personal relation).

We had a lot of Amish were I lived in Tennessee, and Mennonites where I live now. Modern Mennonites have moved more away from older theology but also carry a lot forward.

Interesting, I miss the hillside slowdowns for carriage and horses! Grew up around the Pennsylvania area myself where Amish and Dutch are residents.

In Christianity we see something similar. Man owns his own will, freely makes his own decisions, but the outcome belongs to God.

Yes, and sometimes not enough emphasis is placed upon perseverance of the saints. Persevere to what end? The end in faith? Or perhaps sanctification in holiness. What good was a headful of doctrine but no apparent transformation in holiness? So much emphasis throughout the OT to worship in holiness the Most Holy!

Shalom

 

[Christforums]

This issue of free will vs God's will is a distinctly western problem. This is why neither camp can win via Scripture (Scripture does not assume a Western mindset).

The ancient Eastern was overlaid by the Western - concerning the Septuagint. I heard the Greek was more precise than English, for example, the word love in Greek has various relations by definitions and types. Likewise I found the context defines the meaning in Hebrew of the same word which could be used in different context and mean something somewhat different.

Shalom

 

[JonC]

I believe the theological term is Apostolic doctrine concerning transmission rather than Apostolic Succession (by personal relation).



Interesting, I miss the hillside slowdowns for carriage and horses! Grew up around the Pennsylvania area myself where Amish and Dutch are residents.



Yes, and sometimes not enough emphasis is placed upon perseverance of the saints. Persevere to what end? The end in faith? Or perhaps sanctification in holiness. What good was a headful of doctrine but no apparent transformation in holiness? So much emphasis throughout the OT to worship in holiness the Most Holy!

Shalom

The main issue, IMHO, is that so many have been influenced by Roman Catholic doctrine. We see this in the way Calvinism reformed Aquinas' theory (moving from merit to justice). The basis remains distinctive lyrics Catholic, but the focus is on avoiding Hell by having God judge Jesus "guilty". Such a system can only reduction in a type of legalistic "holiness".

I like the example used in your link. It shows a type of transformation foreign to many churches today.

 

[Christforums]

The main issue, IMHO, is that so many have been influenced by Roman Catholic doctrine. We see this in the way Calvinism reformed Aquinas' theory (moving from merit to justice). The basis remains distinctive lyrics Catholic, but the focus is on avoiding Hell by having God judge Jesus "guilty". Such a system can only reduction in a type of legalistic "holiness".

I like the example used in your link. It shows a type of transformation foreign to many churches today.

Perhaps because Pelagianism is the doctrine of the natural man in which he desires to champion. The Catholic church being the sole interpreter and authority of Scripture.

Pelagianism = man only needs a fine education and teacher or guidance.
Arminianism = man was hurt and needs a physician or healer.
Calvinism = man was/is dead in sin and trespass and needs the Savior
Universalism = if Satan can be atoned for who isn't savable?

Protestants champion Sola Scriptura, that is, the best interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, the vague must be interpreted by the more concise or clear passages. The emphasis is placed upon the NT to illuminate the OT; therefore, the OT is read through the lens of the NT ironically influenced by the Greeks.

 

[Christforums]

We see this in the way Calvinism reformed Aquinas' theory (moving from merit to justice).

I enjoyed Aquinas' commentary throughout Isaiah. One of the things I noted was how much merit Thomas Aquinas gave to the Mystics of his day whether Jewish or Christian was not said. Easy to forget the early church began from Jews: disciples, apostles, the early churches etc.

In a way I can see the practices of the Sadducees pertaining to the invested powers which divorce and remarry men and women.

Are we having fun @JonC ?
Shalom

 

[JonC]

Perhaps because Pelagianism is the doctrine of the natural man in which he desires to champion. The Catholic church being the sole interpreter and authority of Scripture.

Pelagianism = man only needs a fine education and teacher or guidance.
Arminianism = man was hurt and needs a physician or healer.
Calvinism = man was/is dead in sin and trespass and needs the Savior
Universalism = if Satan can be atoned for who isn't savable?

Protestants champion Sola Scriptura, that is, the best interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, the vague must be interpreted by the more concise or clear passages. The emphasis is placed upon the NT to illuminate the OT; therefore, the OT is read through the lens of the NT ironically influenced by the Greeks.

Good point. A lot of developed theological views came about as a reaction to another doctrine, a blend of doctrines, or a reform of doctrines.

The Catholic Church came about by "christianizing" the Roman Empire, resulting in carrying Roman paganism into the system. (Same with Ireland, Louisiana, and Haiti...for example).

Reformed doctrine came about by carrying forward Roman Catholic doctrine in a reformed state.

I think this is natural. If these new faiths (new at a time in history) sits well with Scripture it is not overly problematic. But each falls apart at some point and we are forced to rely on God's Word rather than our own understanding.

 

[JonC]

I enjoyed Aquinas commentary throughout Isaiah. One of the things I noted was how much merit Thomas Aquinas gave to the Mystics of his day whether Jewish or Christian was not said. Easy to forget the early church began from Jews, disciples, apostles, the early churches etc. Perhaps because of the schools of the Pharisees.

In a way I can see the practices of the Sadducees pertaining to the invested powers which divorce and remarry men and women.

Are we having fun @JonC ?
Shalom

We are having fun.

Even Aquinas' work was reforming Anselm, and his article reaction to what Catholic doctrine had become by the 12th century.

It is fun to look at how theology has developed over the centuries.

In America Calvinism became popular in Baptist churches as a reaction to the Methodist Church (it was the largest for some time). And Methodists were once Calvinists. James Arminius died and orthodox Calvinist (Calvinism narrowed afterwards).

It is fascinating.

 

[David Lamb]

In America Calvinism became popular in Baptist churches as a reaction to the Methodist Church (it was the largest for some time). And Methodists were once Calvinists. James Arminius died and orthodox Calvinist (Calvinism narrowed afterwards).

It is fascinating.

There are some churches in Wales known as "Calvinistic Methodist Churches", but I don't think it's right that in general, Methodists were once Calvinists. The Wesleys certainly weren't. Also, I don't understand how Arminius could have "died an orthodox Calvinist," because it was the five points of the doctrines of Arminius (Conditional election. Unlimited atonement. Prevenient grace and resistible grace. Conditional preservation of the saints.) which led to the so-called Five Points of Calvinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This discussion has been wonderfully useful. Thanks @JonC @37818 for your engagements.
Thanks for helping me articulate some through things I had written on my blog a moment ago: בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים rhetorical questions for they in which asked – The school of Isaiah

I used a url shortener because the url does a number in the url format.

Shalom

You misunderstand Calvinism. Where are you getting your information?

 

[JonC]

There are some churches in Wales known as "Calvinistic Methodist Churches", but I don't think it's right that in general, Methodists were once Calvinists. The Wesleys certainly weren't. Also, I don't understand how Arminius could have "died an orthodox Calvinist," because it was the five points of the doctrines of Arminius (Conditional election. Unlimited atonement. Prevenient grace and resistible grace. Conditional preservation of the saints.) which led to the so-called Five Points of Calvinism.

The name "methodist" came from the methodical way they lived their faith. But yes, John and Charles Wesley were not Calvinists. Whitfield, of course, was.

James Arminius died an orthodox Calvinist because at his death Arminianism was considered (by a formal counsel of the church) to be a bit extreme but within orthodox Calvinism. The reason Arminianism is now outside of Calvinism is perhaps more political than religious. But this occurred after Arminius had died.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@Christforums

I like your article. You were a hybrid wolf breader??!


The problem with the "free will vs divine sovereignty debate on this forum" is, in my view, that these are not mutually exclusive.

The reason is illustrated in the illustration using animals. God is infinitely greater than us. His will can encompass the exercise of ours. (I am a compatiblist).

What’s that mean, I’m a compaticlist?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There are some churches in Wales known as "Calvinistic Methodist Churches", but I don't think it's right that in general, Methodists were once Calvinists. The Wesleys certainly weren't. Also, I don't understand how Arminius could have "died an orthodox Calvinist," because it was the five points of the doctrines of Arminius (Conditional election. Unlimited atonement. Prevenient grace and resistible grace. Conditional preservation of the saints.) which led to the so-called Five Points of Calvinism.

Have you studied Martin Lloyd Jones… he would be your best image of a Calvinist Methodist. My Welsh family were CM’s and also Congregationalists… please explain those differences.

 

[JonC]

What’s that mean, I’m a compaticlist?

It means my phone likes to make up words.

compatibilist

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It means my phone likes to make up words.

compatibilist

Oh

 

[Christforums]

You misunderstand Calvinism. Where are you getting your information?

Studied in theology for decades, member of the OPC Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Studied the Synod of Dort, read Calvin's commentary throughout the Scripture from cover to cover, Westminster Confession of Faith large and short catechism, Heidelberg, etc etc.,.. . I haven't a clue what you might believe was misunderstood. However, my emphasis was not Calvinism.

Also, I don't understand how Arminius could have "died an orthodox Calvinist," because it was the five points of the doctrines of Arminius (Conditional election. Unlimited atonement.

Very much correct, a lot of time things are not articulated until controversy occurs. For example, the Nicene Creed was revised a few times and each time another section was added as matters surfaced throughout time. Likewise, Arminius and his followers were tried and their controversy was the cause and reason the Synod of Dort called them to trial and/to settle said controversy. Throughout church history referring to the universal catholic church controversy became pivotal moments in doctrine let alone the history of the catholic church: synergism vs. monergism, the Five Solas, Arminianism and Calvinism. Arminianism wasn't necessarily the doctrine before Calvinism but rather the controversy by which the Synod of Dort responded and the Synod findings developed later coined Calvinism and the Five Points of Calvinism.

Shalom

 

[Christforums]

@Christforums

I like your article. You were a hybrid wolf breader??!

Yes, documented through the Hybrid Wolf Association back in the 1980s I bred Hybrid Wolves some 99 percent genetically pure for the sake of legality. In the state I lived pure bred wolves were illegal to domesticate.

Fascinating experience, learned another side of Wolves yet they had to be respected as wild. Amazing to observe especially when operating as a pack, the tactics used to hunt, namely distraction when confronting prey.

 

[Christforums]

Fellas, what do you think about my new indoor study room?

A work in progress, I need to pour the clear epoxy resin over the flooring after filled: Ambience, with four wings they fly - The school of Isaiah

After the flooring is completed I'll begin the walls. Thinking about making troughs along the walls to grow bamboo and vines to cover the walls. The issue then might be lighting.