Dispensationalists: Why is This Version of Israel THE One of Prophecy?

[Yeshua1]

No....according to the apostle Paul who quotes this for unbelieving Jews to see and understand in the book of Romans.....God can define the people in the city of Jerusalem, as Sodom, Egypt, Babylon,,, as he see's fit.
saying jerusalem has become as these wicked cities....the enemy of God is very effective to highlight the point.

When Jesus says remember Lot's wife.....it was not just a random example.

When someone goes to the absurd...to try and prevail in a discussion....they are failing to deal with the issue at hand.

Aresman offered the correct verses to answer your initial point.:thumbsup:

How do you intreprete the OT verses stating that when messiah reigns, ALL nations shall go up to Jerusalem to make homage to God of isreal there?

David ruling over them?

 

[Iconoclast]

How do you intreprete the OT verses stating that when messiah reigns, ALL nations shall go up to Jerusalem to make homage to God of isreal there?

David ruling over them?

I believe this is fulfilled fully In Jesus Christ reigning as Lord now.....from the Jerusalem above....right now.

You are looking for a restoration of the Jerusalem below....rather than a reign from heaven now...from the Jerusalem above

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice also in verse 27....this is a quote from Isa 54....gentiles being brought into the Covenant......so.....THE CHURCH...being built by Jesus was spoken of in the OT ...but not understood by the jewish leaders.

Ezkiel 34 speaks of the great high priest Jesus who is our great Shepherd....as per lk 19..and john 10....look at the language used....but see how Peter in Acts 2 mentions that it is jesus and not david who is raised to the throne...

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.
31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



So when the OT prophets spoke of the law going forth from Jerusalem...it goes forth from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....into the heart of the law keeping believers in the kingdom of God as it is expressed on earth with Christ ruling in the midst of His enemies----

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

This Ot prophecy is being fulfilled by the elect remnant from physical Israel, along with the elect gentiles....who form the New Covenant Israel...because Jesus is the True Covenant Son...the true Israel...and us in Him ...

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;


The Covenant now being fulfilled worldwide...Jn 3:16...1jn 2:2...not to jacob only...50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[kyredneck]

Some in the Muslim world? I'd say the majority of the Muslim world.

Don't confuse Arab governments shows of 'solidarity with the Palestinians' as being 'hatred'. To recognize Israel would be like admitting that the Palestinians had been defeated and that they no longer supported the Palestinian cause. Not all Muslim, or even Arab, countries are frothing to wipe out Israel. Things HAVE gotten significantly worse since the Gaza invasion of 2008 though.

I'd define hatred as the Nazi attempt to eradicate the Jews an example.

Yes, that's hatred, and/or blind obedience to a hateful regime.

But, for the sake of objectivity, do you know whose device the Bolshevik gulag was, or who ran and operated that horrific institution decades before the Nazi concentration camps ever came into existence?

Do you know who committed the first acts of terrorism in Palestine 1940s?

Do you understand that this...:

http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine/

.....precipitated this?:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html

There is an immutable characteristic of God:

Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, And be filled with their own devices. Pr 1:31

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7

And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. Ezek 9:10

I'd call White Supremacists haters.

I'm sure some are, but they pose no threat to Israel, and they undoubtedly preserve some historic facts/truths that would otherwise be lost or forgotten.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe this is fulfilled fully In Jesus Christ reigning as Lord now.....from the Jerusalem above....right now.

You are looking for a restoration of the Jerusalem below....rather than a reign from heaven now...from the Jerusalem above




Notice also in verse 27....this is a quote from Isa 54....gentiles being broght into the Covenant......so.....THE CHURCH...being built by Jesus was spoken of in the OT ...but not understood by the jewish leaders.

Ezkiel 34 speaks of the great high priest Jesus who is our great Shepherd....as per lk 19..and john 10....look at the language used....but see how Peter in Acts 2 mentions that it is jesus and not david who is raised to the throne...







29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



So when the OT prophets spoke of the law going forth from Jerusalem...it goes forth from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....into the heart of the law keeping believers in the kingdom of God as it is expressed on earth with Christ ruling in the midst of His enemies----




This Ot prophecy is being fulfilled by the elect remnant from physical Israel, along with the elect gentiles....who form the New Covenant Israel...because Jesus is the True Covenant Son...the true Israel...and us in Him ...

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;


The Covenant now being fulfilled worldwide...Jn 3:16...1jn 2:2...not to jacob only...50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

So when will ALL nations of the World come to worship God, when God law will be throughout entire earth, and observed?

has God cast off than His jewish peoples, in spite of what paul said?

 

[Iconoclast]

So when will ALL nations of the World come to worship God, when God law will be throughout entire earth, and observed?

has God cast off than His jewish peoples, in spite of what paul said?

Romans 11 seems to indicate a large number of Physical jews...become converted to the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ...

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


See verse 31.....This is like isa 65 :1

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

The gentiles {church} provoke unbelieving Jews{remant} back to the Covenant.....

The Big difference between covenant view and dispy view.....is the Church is primary.....Jesus the head, believers{throughout all time} the body...

Physical Israel as a nation, or covenant son...failed to serve God ..for the most part;;;;

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

The nation as the covenant son....failed after the first exodus

The holy nation{church} does not fail......in the new exodus in Jesus..

mt215 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

 

[thomas15]

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Can anyone offer a rational explanation as to why Jehovah would call Israel Sodom and Gomorrah? Why no just call Israel Israel, Sodom Sodom, and Gomorrah Gomorrah?

And then just a few verses later in Isaiah 1:21-31 the Bible speaks of restoration.

 

[kyredneck]

FIRST TERRORIST ACT of the 20th CENTURY 8:35

 

[Bob Alkire]

Israel has a long history of having a kingdom of power, then being judged and humbled, dominated by another government then dispersed. Then again elevated to power, being judged and humbled, dominated by another government, dispersed. Repeat.

Why do you believe the Israel brought into being in May 1948 is the final version of Israel, God's chosen people?

I believe that modern Israel could be a work of God and He could be in the process of fulfilling Bible prophecy. I don't know but I lean in that direction.
The issue that bothers so many of us is the fact that not only have the Jews returned in unbelief of Jesus,and the majority aren't even Orthodox Jews. I would say the majority are atheists or agnostics. The regenerated nation that the Scriptures speaks of, and the present day Israel doesn't fits that picture of prophecy.
However, the prophets spoke of two international returns. First, there was to be a regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment, namely the judgment of the tribulation. Thiswill be followed by a second world-wide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing, the blessings of the messianic age. When it is recognized that the Bible speaks of two such regatherings, it is easy to see how the present state of Israel could fit into prophecy.​

 

[kyredneck]

I believe that modern Israel could be a work of God and He could be in the process of fulfilling Bible prophecy. I don't know but I lean in that direction.

I waffle back & forth, though by no means do I hold to a literal material 'kingdom' where literal physical Jews are going to be our masters and reign over the world from literal physical Jerusalem. I do maintain hope that there will someday be a revival and they will be brought into the fold, I.E. THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. What a marvelous happening that would be! An incredible boon for the kingdom here on earth!

Passages such as these cause me to hope in this manner:

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last. Lk 13

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a shilling a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing in the marketplace idle;
4 and to them he said, Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing; and he saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard.
8 And when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the laborers, and pay them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a shilling.
10 And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received every man a shilling.
11 And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
12 saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
13 But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
14 Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last. Mt 20

 

[thomas15]

I waffle back & forth,

Proof that even a broken clock is right twice in every 24 hour time block.

30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last. Lk 1

And of course we all know what person (the least individual getting the glory) who you think this referring to. HINT: initials are ky. Although I personally wouldn't take this prophecy as literal as you would and would see it as fufilled or as allegory or something.

 

[Bob Alkire]

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last. Mt 20

My Ky. friend we are so far apart on this that we aren't going to do much for one another.

In view of the context, I would say the 12 disciples correspond to the workers hired at the beginning of the day, as they were at the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry. The ones hired later would correspond to other who became Jesus’ disciples later in His ministry.

 

[kyredneck]

Ah, whenever I see that element of jealousy or discord from the first towards the last I can't help but think jealousy of the Jews of the Old Covenant towards Christians of the New Covenant.

 

[thomas15]

Ah, whenever I see that element of jealousy or discord from the first towards the last I can't help but think jealousy of the Jews of the Old Covenant towards Christians of the New Covenant.

Is it because of the biblical love that christians show the jews (especally reformed covenant christians) that they are jealous of our salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32:21

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18

And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4:2

And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5:16,17

But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17:5

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 But he was angry, and would not go in: and his father came out, and entreated him.
29 But he answered and said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine; and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 but when this thy son came, who hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou killedst for him the fatted calf. Lu 15

11 And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
12 saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
13 But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
14 Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last. Mt 20

 

[Bronconagurski]

Israel was, is, and always will be the elect of God.

The nation of Israel is no longer the chosen nation of God and will never again be. With the Incarnation and crucifixion their part in God's purpose of Salvation was finished!

Your ignorance of the scriptures is appalling.

Romans 11:25-31 (NET1)
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience,
31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy.

 

[thomas15]

Is it because of the biblical love that christians show the jews (especally reformed covenant christians) that they are jealous of our salvation?

responds:

Dt 32:21
Ro 10
Acts 13
Mt 27:17,18
Acts 4:2
Acts 5:16,17
Acts 17:5
Lu 15
Mt 20

So, ky is your answer to my question YES!

 

[thomas15]

Is it because of the biblical love that christians show the jews (especally reformed covenant christians) that they are jealous of our salvation?

or ky, is your answer NO!

 

[kyredneck]

Your ignorance of the scriptures is appalling.

Your presumptuousness is appalling.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Your presumptuousness is appalling.

Your use of the English language is ridiculous. It is not presumptous when one makes a heretical statement.

 

[kyredneck]

I assure you OR is NOT ignorant of the scriptures!