Do people “choose to believe”?

[Marooncat79]

God is not obligated to save anyone

He should send us all (even the elect) to hell but He chose to display mercy and grace towards some

if we see ourselves as sinners and understand that Christ came to save sinners and are willing to trust Him. Well??

how do we know we are elect?

we reflect the fruit of the Spirit, Love Christ and His Word, rejoice in the salvation of others, love to worship and honor God and seek to live by the 10

we also, and this may be the most important: hate our sin, and know that our only hope is in Christ and His atoning Work and Resurrection-in fact it prob is more important than the previous paragraph

 

[unprofitable]

Abraham's responds to Lazarus in Luke 16:31 by saying, "And he said to him, if they hear not (not believe) Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded (they will NOT believe) though one rose from the dead."

Deu 29:4 says, "Yet the LORD HATH NOT GIVEN YOU an heart to perceive, and eyes to see and ears to hear, unto this day." Also see Isa 44:18.

The vast majority of "whosoever will" examples are used in the context that the gentiles would now be grafted into the body of Christ and be partakers with the Jews. NONE that I have read are in the context of the ability of the individual to choose, accept or reject.

 

[robycop3]

Hebrews 9:22

Still, His death woulda been unnecessary, as He coulda shed blood but not died. However, the TRUTH IS, not everyone was predestinated before birth. Salvation is open to all people now living.

 

[unprofitable]

Bro Robycop,
You forgot to read the 16th verse. "For where a testament/covenant is, there must also OF NECESSITY (without option) be the DEATH of the testator.

 

[canadyjd]

Do you agree God's justice is perfect or not?

If yes, what do you believe that the perfectly-just God would do with people who, thru no fault of their own, had never heard of Him?

Of course God is perfectly just. God would be perfectly just to condemn every person on the planet to eternity in hell. Instead, He shows mercy to His elect.

I base what I believe on what scripture says, not on my own sense of what is just or fair.

If you assign your own sense of fairness upon God, ignoring scripture, you will end up with an idol as surely as if you carved one from wood or stone. That “god” would be a lie and unable to save anyone.

peace to you

 

[robycop3]

Bro Robycop,
You forgot to read the 16th verse. "For where a testament/covenant is, there must also OF NECESSITY (without option) be the DEATH of the testator.

What I'm saying is, that if everyone is predestinsted & that destiny cannot be changed no matter what, Jesus' whole sacrifice would be unnecessary. The fact that He underwent the sacrifice shows predestination for all isn't true.

 

[robycop3]

Of course God is perfectly just. God would be perfectly just to condemn every person on the planet to eternity in hell. Instead, He shows mercy to His elect.

I base what I believe on what scripture says, not on my own sense of what is just or fair.

If you assign your own sense of fairness upon God, ignoring scripture, you will end up with an idol as surely as if you carved one from wood or stone. That “god” would be a lie and unable to save anyone.

peace to you

In that case, remember that Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if already elect" in Scripture.

 

[unprofitable]

Bro Robycop,

I may still not be understanding your point, but man had fallen and there had to be a sacrifice for sin, a sacrifice that only Christ could provide.

 

[Marooncat79]

What I'm saying is, that if everyone is predestinsted & that destiny cannot be changed no matter what, Jesus' whole sacrifice would be unnecessary. The fact that He underwent the sacrifice shows predestination for all isn't true.

The atonement in Hebrews 9:22 is for the elect

 

[Dave G]

In that case, remember that Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if already elect" in Scripture.

Jesus very definitely said,

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

I'm not sure why some keep missing the significance of what he says here, roby, but it is as much a part of Jesus words as all the rest of them.
The "whoever" is defined by the totality of who and what He said they would be...
Is it not?

" Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion." ( Isaiah 8:18 ).

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:37-40 ).

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one." ( John 10:25-30 ).

The "whosoever believeth" are God's elect.
Only Christ's sheep will hear His voice.
Only those that are "of" God will hear God's words.
Only those who were given to Christ by His Father, will come to Him.
Jesus will only save those who were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:1-3 ).
Only the foreknown are predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

That is what describes, in detail, the "whosoever".
They are defined by every other statement that the Lord Jesus makes about them.

 

[AustinC]

The atonement in Hebrews 9:22 is for the elect

Indeed, from Hebrews 9:16-28 you find out very clearly that those who are written into the will (new covenant) are redeemed. If a person is not written into that will...

Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.

That is why even the first covenant was put into effect with the blood of an animal. For after Moses had read each of God’s commandments to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, and sprinkled both the book of God’s law and all the people, using hyssop branches and scarlet wool. Then he said, “This blood confirms the covenant God has made with you.” And in the same way, he sprinkled blood on the Tabernacle and on everything used for worship. In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ was offered once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[Dave G]

According to the Bible, the reason that I believed on Christ was because it was given to me in the behalf of my Saviour to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).
That, my friends, is grace.

 

[canadyjd]

In that case, remember that Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if already elect" in Scripture.

The “whosoever” of John 3:16 has already been qualified in vv1-10 or so with “the wind blows where it will….. so is everyone born of the Spirit”.

We won’t agree. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Marooncat79]

Whosoever is not in the Greek

it’s better read “all those trusting in Him will never perish”. Something close to that

well of course those who are trusting in Christ will never perish they are the sheep of God

 

[DaveXR650]

I fully understand and sympathize with those who feel that the idea that God is doing the choosing - and logically then doesn't choose others - are slandering God's love. And if that's all you mean then OK. But I sometimes feel in these discussions a sense of demanding a final sovereignty over the whole process that is scary to me. It's almost like they want to sing "In my hand no price I bring, simply to thy cross I cling", and then add a verse "Just remember without me, none of this would come to be".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

'Tis not that I did choose Thee,
For Lord, that could not be; [Psalms 65:4]
This heart would still refuse Thee
Hadst Thou not chosen me. [Psalms 110:3]
Thou from the sin that stained me
Hast cleansed and set me free; [Romans 6:22]
Of old thou hast ordained me
that I should live for Thee. [Jeremiah 31:3]

'Twas sovereign mercy called me, [Romans 1:6]
And taught my opening mind; [John 6:35]
The world had else enthralled me,
To heavenly glories blind. [Revelation 13:4]
My heart owns none above Thee;
For Thy rich grace I thirst; [Psalms 42:1-2]
This knowing, if I love Thee,
Thou must have loved me first. [1 John 1:10]

Josiah Conder, 1789-1865.

 

[robycop3]

Bro Robycop,

I may still not be understanding your point, but man had fallen and there had to be a sacrifice for sin, a sacrifice that only Christ could provide.

If everyone's predestinated, no matter what, it doesn't matter.

 

[robycop3]

The atonement in Hebrews 9:22 is for the elect

But people choose to become elect.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus very definitely said,

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

I'm not sure why some keep missing the significance of what he says here, roby, but it is as much a part of Jesus words as all the rest of them.
The "whoever" is defined by the totality of who and what He said they would be...
Is it not?

" Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion." ( Isaiah 8:18 ).

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:37-40 ).

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one." ( John 10:25-30 ).

The "whosoever believeth" are God's elect.
Only Christ's sheep will hear His voice.
Only those that are "of" God will hear God's words.
Only those who were given to Christ by His Father, will come to Him.
Jesus will only save those who were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:1-3 ).
Only the foreknown are predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

That is what describes, in detail, the "whosoever".
They are defined by every other statement that the Lord Jesus makes about them.

But God gave people free will to become elect or not.

 

[robycop3]

The “whosoever” of John 3:16 has already been qualified in vv1-10 or so with “the wind blows where it will….. so is everyone born of the Spirit”.

We won’t agree. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

Long as you believe incorrectly, we won't agree. You're welcome for the conversation.