Did Paul state that we all spiritually died in Adam? No, Paul did not state that. That is not correct.
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Do we hacve fallen sin natures or not now?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Particular
Well-Known Member
Here is what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Quibble away...
No, it doesn't.
Pelagius never thought that.
I'm sorry, you're mistaken.
If you want to imagine such a theology as existing and inexplicably name it "Pelagianism" than feel free to, but it would be gratuitously random to call it that and it would have no basis in historical fact.
This imagined theology you speak of simply does not exist except in the fevered imaginations of Calvinists.
No quibbling at all. This is exactly what I mean.
Good - and I believe sufficient - text.
I see human nature as being that aspect of us that is non material, the part that is in this physical body. but passes on when death happens!
1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul disagrees with you!
See post 126 also
So those who hold to such theology are what, neither Calvinists nor arminians!
post 126
I do not. I believe that we are more than our physical bodies, but I do not believe that we are our nature. What you call a "nature" is what I call a "soul" or "spirit" (that part of us that passes on when death happens).
No, it does not. That is the problem here. You make a statement and then extract a verse. Did Paul say in the verse "We all died spiritually in Adam"? Is that the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22?
No, of course not. You are taking the verse out of context and using it (using God's Word) to support what is not actually said:
1 Corinthians 15:20-49 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands er the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? Why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Post 126 is not only wrong, but it abuses Scripture to support an entirely different topic.
pauls point is that Adam is our head when physical born and all of us spiritual dead in him, once in Christ, now spiritual alive!
I know that is what you believe, but it is not what Paul is saying in the passage.
The "flesh" is dealing with our body as now constituted (not human nature). The victory of 15:57 is victory over death and the grave which is done through Jesus Christ alone. Paul is emphasizing the truth and importance of the doctrine of the resurrection - as Christ's resurrection makes our resurrection certain.
What you have done is take words in 1 Corinthians, strip them of the meaning Paul gives those words, and ascribe to them a meaning that suits your ideas. But you have missed the mark when it comes to understanding Paul because you are not actually dealing with Scripture but using bits and pieces to support your view.
We have eternal life, spiritual like in Jesus once saved, and what else can flesh be but sin nature received from the Fall?
You and I disagree on how to understand that, but I am not "abusing scripture"
The Bible says that Adam was created "flesh". You seem to be saying this is not true. So I have no idea how you work this out.
I believe that we are flesh and need of a spiritual birth. As far as your theory of natures, if you want to engage the topic then I think you need to first work out better definitions.
As it stands you say one thing until Scripture disagrees, then you deny what you said for a couple of minutes, and then go back to rejecting what the Bible says of the matter. You are swaying from side to side depending on the question asked.
This is not true. You took the verse out of its context (out of Paul's dialogue in 1 Corinthians) and applied Paul's words (which was about our hope in a resurrection based on Christ's resurrection) to your theory as "proof". That is abusing Scripture.
Adam when created was sinless in his humanity, nature as he was in the state Jesus was born in at Incarnation.... Both were sinless humanity, perfect flesh , but Adam sinned and experienced the effects of the fall, as we all do save for Jesus!
Our basis for the bodily resurrection is due to now being being spiritually alive in Jesus, and not still spiritual dead in Adam!