Yes, a small country church, near my home.
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Do you have questions about evangelism?The Way of the Master Moment Mail call Q&A
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Yes, a small country church, near my home.
Your saying Christ isn't enough then.....you need a professional counceler, the pastors wife as a prayer buddy, group meetings etc.
Christ is enough for salvation.
2 Timothy 3:16 tells us what about God's word? That it is profitable for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
1 Thessalonians 5:11 tells us "Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing."
Colossians 1:28 says "Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ."
We see clearly through Scripture that we are not to be "lone ranger Christians" but instead teach, admonish, pray for, encourage, and build up one another in order to present everyone mature in Christ.
Wow. What a priviledged, spoiled people we are becoming when traveling an hour away to a church isn't what we want to do.
Friends of mine are ministering at a church where people walk up to 4 hours over very rough terrain to get to church.
What is that saying? What will it be like when churches are shut down and we need to actually work hard to get to church? Driving an hour is easy. It's nothing. I'm sure any one of us would drive an hour to visit a friend, eat at a good restaurant or see our favorite sports team but God isn't good enough for an hour trip?
Listen lady. I drive 100 miles a day to and from work and in Nj that generally translates to 2 hrs a day each way so I'm not driving that to get to a church that's outa my community. Its the community I'm stressing not the drive. So you continue to miss the whole point and that is there should be a church in the community serving the community so you wanna answer that question or continue acting like Jackie Kennedy.
Get involved and then plant a church out of the church that you are attending in your own community. 30 miles away is not far - it's what we travel a number of times a week for church. We still minister in the area that the church is in and we minister in the area we live in. It's not THAT hard.
More like an hour...each way.
They don't want to plant a church, it would cost them too much....that's what I was told. Got any other bright ideas?
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Thread derailed!!!!
This thread has been derailed! It was supposed to be on questions about doing evangelism. Please get back to topic.
This thread has been derailed! It was supposed to be on questions about doing evangelism. Please get back to topic.
You're fighting a losing battle. He would rather complain about the situation than do anything about it.
I have some questions, and perhaps you can enlighten me.
One of my problems with WOTM has been that it seems to take the Ten Commandments out of context for its own agenda. Don’t get me wrong, I actually agree with much of their approach. But the Ten Commandments are not God’s moral law (which is revealed to the world apart from the Ten Commandments). In other words, sin is not simply violating one of the Ten Commandments. Additionally, God’s moral law was expressed to Gentiles apart from the Ten Commandments….and God’s moral law was in effect prior to the Law being given (sin was sin before it was a transgression of the Law…Torah). I fear that a poor theological start (in terms of evangelism) may carry consequences.
Connected to this is WOTM’s confusion regarding God’s moral law, Torah, and the Ten Commandments. They seem to use these interchangeably. The Ten Commandments were a portion of the Law (Torah). God’s moral law extends beyond the Law (Torah). As stated, it was here centuries before the Law was given, Gentiles were never “under the Law” but they were accountable under God’s moral law, etc. I don’t know how WOTM can possibly make sense out of the Pauline epistles (except they separate their theology of evangelism from their exegesis of Scripture). It is sloppy theology. It results in some believing that the lost are convicted "under the Law," or that "the Law is/was our Schoolmaster" (both are misrepresentations of Scripture). I'm concerned about the level of theological error that will result through WOTM.
One of my strongest concerns is that Ray Comfort makes it clear that people are sent to Hell for breaking the Ten Commandments, and definitely NOT for rejecting Christ (see “What Did Jesus Do”). This elevates the Ten Commandments beyond biblical warrant. It is also a false belief. People don’t go to Hell for individual sins that they commit, but for the Sin that masters their lives.
My concern is that WOTM is no better than “Wild at Heart.” Both address legitimate concerns, both express a truth, and both begin on a biblical basis. But both twist Scripture to suit their agenda. Why should I follow WOTM when I have a Bible that suggests otherwise?
One of my problems with WOTM has been that it seems to take the Ten Commandments out of context for its own agenda. Don’t get me wrong, I actually agree with much of their approach. But the Ten Commandments are not God’s moral law (which is revealed to the world apart from the Ten Commandments). In other words, sin is not simply violating one of the Ten Commandments. Additionally, God’s moral law was expressed to Gentiles apart from the Ten Commandments….and God’s moral law was in effect prior to the Law being given (sin was sin before it was a transgression of the Law…Torah). I fear that a poor theological start (in terms of evangelism) may carry consequences.
Connected to this is WOTM’s confusion regarding God’s moral law, Torah, and the Ten Commandments. They seem to use these interchangeably. The Ten Commandments were a portion of the Law (Torah). God’s moral law extends beyond the Law (Torah). As stated, it was here centuries before the Law was given, Gentiles were never “under the Law” but they were accountable under God’s moral law, etc. I don’t know how WOTM can possibly make sense out of the Pauline epistles (except they separate their theology of evangelism from their exegesis of Scripture). It is sloppy theology. It results in some believing that the lost are convicted "under the Law," or that "the Law is/was our Schoolmaster" (both are misrepresentations of Scripture). I'm concerned about the level of theological error that will result through WOTM.
One of my strongest concerns is that Ray Comfort makes it clear that people are sent to Hell for breaking the Ten Commandments, and definitely NOT for rejecting Christ (see “What Did Jesus Do”). This elevates the Ten Commandments beyond biblical warrant. It is also a false belief. People don’t go to Hell for individual sins that they commit, but for the Sin that masters their lives.
My concern is that WOTM is no better than “Wild at Heart.” Both address legitimate concerns, both express a truth, and both begin on a biblical basis. But both twist Scripture to suit their agenda. Why should I follow WOTM when I have a Bible that suggests otherwise?
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That was very disrespectful. You owe Ann an apology.
You don't need anyone's permission to start a church. Start a Bible study in your home -......
Everyman has a conscience and everyman knows that stealing, lying, lusting, murdering, and such are sins. Therefore it is best to use the law when confronting someone, over just quoting the Romans road, because those alive in the NT already were familiar with the 10 commandments and knew what sin was. People these days were not raised under a Biblical foundation and therefore need the 10 commandments to show them to be sinners. Even people in the old west and later periods had a biblical foundation and knew what sin was, so perhaps using the 10 commandments was not always necessary. But these days they are vital in an evangelism presentation. No I am not saying they are always needed, but I strive to use them everytime I speak with someone about Christ.
Naturalism is being taught in the schools and people have evolutionary mindsets. Perhaps another approach is to start at that foundation, such as what Answers in Genesis does. You know that I do have creation based gospel tracts.
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You are one disrespectful person EWF! You need some quality time with a Rabbit! I tell you what go to the zoo and find a rabbit and spend some time and then come back here and be more respectful towards others!
That is a mistaken conclusion. Gentiles in the New Testament also did not have a biblical foundation yet they were not convicted "under the Law" unto salvation. Interestingly, examples in Scripture of Gentile evangelism NEVER include using the Law. Can you explain why Paul would not use the Law to convict the lost when witnessing to pagans?
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Go jump in a lake.
You 'think ' so do ya!
Do you have questions about evangelism?The Way of the Master Moment Mail call...
Did you not read Tell the Truth? Metzger made a case for using the law in evangelism as well. Remember his arguments? I think that you have misinterpreted scripture or missed something.
Did you not read Tell the Truth? Metzger made a case for using the law in evangelism as well. Remember his arguments? I think that you have misinterpreted scripture or missed something.
I don’t mean anything bad by this, but it seems to me that you often come up with conclusions that are not warranted by the text. Regardless, Tell the Truth by Metzger does not trump Scripture. So let’s look there because I think that you have misinterpreted Scripture or missed something.
One of us is wrong - so let’s go to Scripture (not other books).
1. Show me where Gentiles are evangelized by being convicted under the Law.
2. Show me where Gentiles are actually stated as being obligated to follow Torah or the Ten Commandments.
3. Show me where Gentiles are said to have sinned because they disobeyed one of the Ten Commandments as stated in Torah.
4. Show me where it is said that Gentiles go to Hell for transgressing the Ten Commandments
5. Show me where the Law “as a Schoolmaster” applies to a Gentile audience.
6. Show me how New Testament era Gentiles had a biblical foundation.
7. Show me where God’s moral law originates with the Ten Commandments.
If you will be so kind and show me at least 4 of the seven requests then perhaps I can understand your point. Here is my evidence:
In Romans 3 Paul explains that apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested. What is the context? Jews were under the Law and were entrusted with the oracles of God. They are guilty under the Law. Gentiles are not under the law, but there is God’s law written in their hearts and conscience (they don’t do what they know is right) and are guilty of breaking this law. It is, according to Paul, not Torah or the Ten Commandments, but God’s own moral standard which condemns us. I will direct you to study Romans. BTW, the “Roman Road” (not my favorite approach) is much more biblical in this aspect than is WOTM).
Read Romans 4. Justification by faith even begins before the Law and the Ten Commandments are given. Somehow Abram was not automatically justified although he was obviously not under the Law. Somehow there was still sin, even it would be centuries before the Ten Commandments would be given. Do you know how this is so? Put down Metzger and read the Bible (it tells you in Genesis….and in Romans Paul spells it out for you). Sin is rebellion against God - not the Ten Commandments. This rebellion is not limited to the Law, existed before the Law, and extends to those not under the Law.
Galatians 3 speaks of the Law as a ‘tutor’ (actually a guardian that kept children - took them to and from school, so to speak). Before faith came they - Israel - was kept in custody of the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become their tutor to lead them to Christ so that they may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, they are no longer under a tutor. The Law was ADDED because of transgressions, by the AGENCY OF A MEDIATOR, UNTIL the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. But this passage is Paul explaining that there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free man, neither male nor female, but one Body of Christ.
Your turn and we can go from there.
Then why read your post? Could not your post be published in a book?
If the law is not relevant as you claim then why is it in our Bibles? Since you seem to think that commands against lying, stealing, murdering, disobeying parents, coveting, and such are meant for the jews, why does everyman have a conscience against such things planted there by God? Even unbelievers understand that breaking a 10 commandment is not right.
Roams 2:15-They (referring to the Gentiles) show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Explain....
PS- Turn to page 58ff of the book Tell the Truth
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Evan, please answer JonC's questions in your own words, don't tell him to read a book.
QUOTE=evangelist6589;2226782]Then why read your post? Could not your post be published in a book?
If the law is not relevant as you claim then why is it in our Bibles? Since you seem to think that commands against lying, stealing, murdering, disobeying parents, coveting, and such are meant for the jews, why does everyman have a conscience against such things planted there by God? Even unbelievers understand that breaking a 10 commandment is not right.
Roams 2:15-They (referring to the Gentiles) show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Explain....
[/QUOTE]
I will, as you ask, explain with the hopes that you will also answer my question (I am granting you any benefit of the doubt concerning your integrity) as I am not certain that you read my post with care…certainly not with clarity.
As you point out, Gentiles were not under the law, but the requirements of the law are written in their hearts. This is God’s moral law. This did not arrive on planet Earth in the form of the 10 Commandments. God’s moral law is a revelation of God’s own nature. If Abraham killed someone, or stole from someone, or disobeyed his father then that would be a sin. It would not, however, be a transgression of the Law because the Law was not yet given. Yet sin existed before the Law…before the 10 Commandments. Is this starting to make sense to you?
Now that we have covered that, please answer my questions and we can legitimately discuss this matter. I encourage you, however, to found your answers on Scripture and I look forward to our discussion.
Why not start with an easy one. WOTM implies that it uses an evangelistic method found in Scripture. We all know that Jesus dealt with Jews under the Law, this is a given. WOTM suggests that this also applies to Gentiles (which I believe to be unbiblical). We have many examples of Gentiles being reached with the gospel. Give one biblical example where evangelism consists of convicting a Gentile "under the Law." (Just a suggestion, you can start with any of my questions you'd like).
If the law is not relevant as you claim then why is it in our Bibles? Since you seem to think that commands against lying, stealing, murdering, disobeying parents, coveting, and such are meant for the jews, why does everyman have a conscience against such things planted there by God? Even unbelievers understand that breaking a 10 commandment is not right.
Roams 2:15-They (referring to the Gentiles) show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Explain....
[/QUOTE]
I will, as you ask, explain with the hopes that you will also answer my question (I am granting you any benefit of the doubt concerning your integrity) as I am not certain that you read my post with care…certainly not with clarity.
As you point out, Gentiles were not under the law, but the requirements of the law are written in their hearts. This is God’s moral law. This did not arrive on planet Earth in the form of the 10 Commandments. God’s moral law is a revelation of God’s own nature. If Abraham killed someone, or stole from someone, or disobeyed his father then that would be a sin. It would not, however, be a transgression of the Law because the Law was not yet given. Yet sin existed before the Law…before the 10 Commandments. Is this starting to make sense to you?
Now that we have covered that, please answer my questions and we can legitimately discuss this matter. I encourage you, however, to found your answers on Scripture and I look forward to our discussion.
Why not start with an easy one. WOTM implies that it uses an evangelistic method found in Scripture. We all know that Jesus dealt with Jews under the Law, this is a given. WOTM suggests that this also applies to Gentiles (which I believe to be unbiblical). We have many examples of Gentiles being reached with the gospel. Give one biblical example where evangelism consists of convicting a Gentile "under the Law." (Just a suggestion, you can start with any of my questions you'd like).
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