Do you have questions about evangelism?The Way of the Master Moment Mail call Q&A

[JonC]

Evan, please answer JonC's questions in your own words, don't tell him to read a book.

Amen!!!!! raying:

 

[JonC]

Here they are again, "Evangelist." I have faithfully provided references for my conclusions, but have yet received a foundation for your beliefs (other than to read Metzger's book). Let's engage the topic and find out who is in error - we both very well may have error in our views - so let's keep it to Scripture as this is the only way you will correct my "misunderstanding."

One of us is wrong - so let’s go to Scripture (not other books).

1. Show me where Gentiles are evangelized by being convicted under the Law.
2. Show me where Gentiles are actually stated as being obligated to follow Torah or the Ten Commandments.
3. Show me where Gentiles are said to have sinned because they disobeyed one of the Ten Commandments as stated in Torah.
4. Show me where it is said that Gentiles go to Hell for transgressing the Ten Commandments
5. Show me where the Law “as a Schoolmaster” applies to a Gentile audience.
6. Show me how New Testament era Gentiles had a biblical foundation.
7. Show me where God’s moral law originates with the Ten Commandments.

 

[Rolfe]

Evan, please answer JonC's questions in your own words, don't tell him to read a book.

Second that.

 

[evangelist6589]

Here they are again, "Evangelist." I have faithfully provided references for my conclusions, but have yet received a foundation for your beliefs (other than to read Metzger's book). Let's engage the topic and find out who is in error - we both very well may have error in our views - so let's keep it to Scripture as this is the only way you will correct my "misunderstanding."

One of us is wrong - so let’s go to Scripture (not other books).

1. Show me where Gentiles are evangelized by being convicted under the Law.
2. Show me where Gentiles are actually stated as being obligated to follow Torah or the Ten Commandments.
3. Show me where Gentiles are said to have sinned because they disobeyed one of the Ten Commandments as stated in Torah.
4. Show me where it is said that Gentiles go to Hell for transgressing the Ten Commandments
5. Show me where the Law “as a Schoolmaster” applies to a Gentile audience.
6. Show me how New Testament era Gentiles had a biblical foundation.
7. Show me where God’s moral law originates with the Ten Commandments.

I can't find specific examples for you but I can find Romans 2:15 which says the following.

(ESV)
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Even Gentiles whom were not raised under the law have the law written on their hearts so in other words God's law is written on the heart of everyman including the gentiles.

Did you know that Jim Elliot's first translation to the Indians was not John 3:16 but the ten commandments? His first sermon to them also dealt with the commandments and he did so because he wanted the law to pave the way to the gospel.

John Paton also first taught his audience the 10 commandments because he knew they needed to understand them first to realize that they were lawbreakers. Did Paton teach salvation by the law? Of coarse not, but do realize that the law is indispensable in biblical, God-Centered evangelism.

I have to wonder if you believe in Practical Antinomianism and therefore think that the law has no use today, because it was for the Old Testament jews and therefore conclude that as long as one makes a "decision" for Jesus and asks him into his heart, it does not matter how he lives, and therefore Carnal christians will be in heaven. Is this what you believe?

 

[Revmitchell]

I have some questions, and perhaps you can enlighten me.

One of my problems with WOTM has been that it seems to take the Ten Commandments out of context for its own agenda. Don’t get me wrong, I actually agree with much of their approach. But the Ten Commandments are not God’s moral law (which is revealed to the world apart from the Ten Commandments). In other words, sin is not simply violating one of the Ten Commandments. Additionally, God’s moral law was expressed to Gentiles apart from the Ten Commandments….and God’s moral law was in effect prior to the Law being given (sin was sin before it was a transgression of the Law…Torah). I fear that a poor theological start (in terms of evangelism) may carry consequences.

Connected to this is WOTM’s confusion regarding God’s moral law, Torah, and the Ten Commandments. They seem to use these interchangeably. The Ten Commandments were a portion of the Law (Torah). God’s moral law extends beyond the Law (Torah). As stated, it was here centuries before the Law was given, Gentiles were never “under the Law” but they were accountable under God’s moral law, etc. I don’t know how WOTM can possibly make sense out of the Pauline epistles (except they separate their theology of evangelism from their exegesis of Scripture). It is sloppy theology. It results in some believing that the lost are convicted "under the Law," or that "the Law is/was our Schoolmaster" (both are misrepresentations of Scripture). I'm concerned about the level of theological error that will result through WOTM.

One of my strongest concerns is that Ray Comfort makes it clear that people are sent to Hell for breaking the Ten Commandments, and definitely NOT for rejecting Christ (see “What Did Jesus Do”). This elevates the Ten Commandments beyond biblical warrant. It is also a false belief. People don’t go to Hell for individual sins that they commit, but for the Sin that masters their lives.

My concern is that WOTM is no better than “Wild at Heart.” Both address legitimate concerns, both express a truth, and both begin on a biblical basis. But both twist Scripture to suit their agenda. Why should I follow WOTM when I have a Bible that suggests otherwise?

I do not use WOTM but I believe you are taking their use of the Ten Commandments farther than they are. You seem to have a characterization of their use rather than how they themselves intend it.

 

[JonC]

I can't find specific examples for you but I can find Romans 2:15 which says the following.

(ESV)
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Even Gentiles whom were not raised under the law have the law written on their hearts so in other words God's law is written on the heart of everyman including the gentiles.

Did you know that Jim Elliot's first translation to the Indians was not John 3:16 but the ten commandments? His first sermon to them also dealt with the commandments and he did so because he wanted the law to pave the way to the gospel.

John Paton also first taught his audience the 10 commandments because he knew they needed to understand them first to realize that they were lawbreakers. Did Paton teach salvation by the law? Of coarse not, but do realize that the law is indispensable in biblical, God-Centered evangelism.

I have to wonder if you believe in Practical Antinomianism and therefore think that the law has no use today, because it was for the Old Testament jews and therefore conclude that as long as one makes a "decision" for Jesus and asks him into his heart, it does not matter how he lives, and therefore Carnal christians will be in heaven. Is this what you believe?

I believe that we are not under the Law (Torah) today because Scripture says that we are not under the Law (Torah). That does not mean it's not applicable - only it is not applicable in the sense you want it to be. I have provided Scripture stating such - I guess you'll have to decide if you want to believe man or God. So let's start with the verse you cite - only the whole passage.

Romans 2:14-16 (NASB)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

These Gentiles do not have the Law. They do instinctively the things of the Law. Why? It is written on their hearts. This is not obedience to the Law (Torah) but instead it is obedience to the law of God. Their fulfillment of the Law (or lack thereof) is not based on the Law (Torah) but on the law of God written on their hearts. The 10 Commandments (a part of Torah) are but expressions of this law. Abraham was not sinless…he sinned but he did not break one of the Ten Commandments because Torah was centuries away. The 10 Commandments are an expression of God's moral righteousness - but they are not that righteousness. When you take a biblical perspective then WOTM cannot hold water.

As for your conclusions about my belief…well, I have to say again that you read without understanding. Don’t wonder about what I believe - just ask me. If one is carnal and a Christian at the same time, then yes, they will be in heaven because we are saved by faith in Christ and not by our works. If you are asking if one can be carnal and a Christian....then that's a different topic all together. I believe that Scripture is correct and WOTM faulty in theology (but not necessarily in practice). Since you can offer no rebuttal founded in Scripture, may I take it that you also see the theological error in WOTM?

 

[JonC]

I do not use WOTM but I believe you are taking their use of the Ten Commandments farther than they are. You seem to have a characterization of their use rather than how they themselves intend it.

That may very well be true, Revmitchell. Much of what I have been interacting with has been Evan’s version of WOTM. Ray Comfort did, however, make the statement that people are sent to Hell for breaking the 10 Commandments and not for rejecting Christ. I believe that this is incorrect. I have learned that the world is condemned for rejecting Christ, and I believe that our sins are manifestations of a sinful nature. We should test the doctrines behind our programs, and in the case of WOTM I find it flawed in that it is bad theology. Otherwise, I applaud their effort and even their methods (in practice, not in reasoning). That said, the Law reveals God's nature...no arguments from me here.

 

[evangelist6589]

That may very well be true, Revmitchell. Much of what I have been interacting with has been Evan’s version of WOTM. Ray Comfort did, however, make the statement that people are sent to Hell for breaking the 10 Commandments and not for rejecting Christ. I believe that this is incorrect. I have learned that the world is condemned for rejecting Christ, and I believe that our sins are manifestations of a sinful nature. We should test the doctrines behind our programs, and in the case of WOTM I find it flawed in that it is bad theology. Otherwise, I applaud their effort and even their methods (in practice, not in reasoning). That said, the Law reveals God's nature...no arguments from me here.

Point out the book quote where you got that please. People are sent to hell for rejecting Christ, and I do not believe Comfort would make such a statement.

 

[Revmitchell]

That may very well be true, Revmitchell. Much of what I have been interacting with has been Evan’s version of WOTM. Ray Comfort did, however, make the statement that people are sent to Hell for breaking the 10 Commandments and not for rejecting Christ. I believe that this is incorrect. I have learned that the world is condemned for rejecting Christ, and I believe that our sins are manifestations of a sinful nature. We should test the doctrines behind our programs, and in the case of WOTM I find it flawed in that it is bad theology. Otherwise, I applaud their effort and even their methods (in practice, not in reasoning). That said, the Law reveals God's nature...no arguments from me here.

I do not care for the compartmentalization of sinning vs. rejecting Christ. From what you have worded here sin is not an issue at all. I do not believe that is what you actually think but your compartmentalization sure gives that picture. We have a sin problem. Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). Until our sin problem is resolved we will stay separated from God and die and go to hell.

We do not go to hell for rejecting Christ we go to hell because we are sinners (Romans 6:23a). Christ is the resolution to our sin problem(Romans 6:23b). God provided a way (through Christ) that our sin problem could be atoned for (Romans 10:9-10).

Therefore, using the Ten Commandments is part of a very effective way to communicate the following:

1. We have a sin problem

2. God loves us so much that He provided the solution to our sin problem.

3. The resolution is a free gift.

Paul very well stressed with great importance our sin problem in the book of Romans.

 

[JonC]

Point out the book quote where you got that please. People are sent to hell for rejecting Christ, and I do not believe Comfort would make such a statement.

What Did Jesus Do: A Call to Return to the Biblical Gospel, page 67

But let's stick to Scripture please.

 

[evangelist6589]

I believe that we are not under the Law (Torah) today because Scripture says that we are not under the Law (Torah). That does not mean it's not applicable - only it is not applicable in the sense you want it to be. I have provided Scripture stating such - I guess you'll have to decide if you want to believe man or God. So let's start with the verse you cite - only the whole passage.

Romans 2:14-16 (NASB)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

These Gentiles do not have the Law. They do instinctively the things of the Law. Why? It is written on their hearts. This is not obedience to the Law (Torah) but instead it is obedience to the law of God. Their fulfillment of the Law (or lack thereof) is not based on the Law (Torah) but on the law of God written on their hearts. The 10 Commandments (a part of Torah) are but expressions of this law. Abraham was not sinless…he sinned but he did not break one of the Ten Commandments because Torah was centuries away. The 10 Commandments are an expression of God's moral righteousness - but they are not that righteousness. When you take a biblical perspective then WOTM cannot hold water.

As for your conclusions about my belief…well, I have to say again that you read without understanding. Don’t wonder about what I believe - just ask me. If one is carnal and a Christian at the same time, then yes, they will be in heaven because we are saved by faith in Christ and not by our works. If you are asking if one can be carnal and a Christian....then that's a different topic all together. I believe that Scripture is correct and WOTM faulty in theology (but not necessarily in practice). Since you can offer no rebuttal founded in Scripture, may I take it that you also see the theological error in WOTM?

So you do hold to practical Antinomianism? The 10 commandments are no longer of value today and therefore all that matters is a "decision" for Christ and that how we live means nothing. But in reality our submission to the commandments and living for Him as Lord verifies that we are true believers, in other words Lordship Salvation.

Regarding your comments on the 10 commandments read this quote from What did Jesus do? by Ray Comfort

This argument insinuates that the Law was given only to deal with self-righteous Jews—that the Gentiles (non-Jewish people) had some superior knowl- edge and did not need the Law to show them their sin.
However, Scripture is clear that both Jews and Gentiles lack understanding: “There is none who understands . . .” (Romans 3:11). Both therefore need the Law to bring the knowledge of sin. When Paul said, “I would not have known sin except through the Law” (Romans 7:7), he didn’t add, “This is because I was a self-righteous Jew. Had I been a self- righteous Gentile, I would not have needed the Law to show me the nature of sin.” Scripture tells us for whom the Law was given:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (Romans 3:19, emphasis added)
Clearly, the Law is for everyone.

As he says clearly the 10 commandments is for everyone. Did you read the scripture that he cited and did you understand them?

 

[evangelist6589]

What Did Jesus Do: A Call to Return to the Biblical Gospel, page 67

But let's stick to Scripture please.

A quote on that page. You misunderstood Comfort and took him out of context.

At face value, it seems Jesus is saying that the world will be judged for their sin “because they do not believe in Me.” That would mean that sin is “a failure to believe in Jesus.”

Hmm of perhaps I misunderstood him.

If a sinner refuses to trust in Jesus Christ when he pass- es through the door of death, he will perish. This isn’t because he failed to believe in the Savior, but primarily be- cause he transgressed the Law of God. Had he “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 13:14), he would have been saved; but because he refused to repent, he will suffer the full consequences of his sin. Again, sin is not “failing to be- lieve in Jesus.” The Bible tells us, “Sin is transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4, KJV).

 

[JonC]

I do not care for the compartmentalization of sinning vs. rejecting Christ. From what you have worded here sin is not an issue at all. I do not believe that is what you actually think but your compartmentalization sure gives that picture. We have a sin problem. Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). Until our sin problem is resolved we will stay separated from God and die and go to hell.

We do not go to hell for rejecting Christ we go to hell because we are sinners (Romans 6:23a). Christ is the resolution to our sin problem(Romans 6:23b). God provided a way (through Christ) that our sin problem could be atoned for (Romans 10:9-10).

Therefore, using the Ten Commandments is part of a very effective way to communicate the following:

1. We have a sin problem

2. God loves us so much that He provided the solution to our sin problem.

3. The resolution is a free gift.

Paul very well stressed with great importance our sin problem in the book of Romans.

I know that John 3 is a discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, and perhaps you may think I take it too literally. But I do take it literally. He who does not believe in Jesus has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. This tells me that it is a sin problem…you are correct. It is our sinfulness, our rebellion against God (which is, I believe, our rejection of Christ). From this sinfulness comes individual sins. Perhaps I overstated my position in dealing with the topic. I don’t think so, but I am limited to my own perspective. Until our sin problem is resolved we will stay separated from God and die and go to Hell. But individual sins are only manifestations of that sin problem (and you are right to correct me if it appeared I was making sin no issue at all….that was not my intent). But the problem is much deeper than breaking a commandment. It goes to the core of our fallen nature, not merely our actions and thoughts. I do not disagree that using the Ten Commandments can be a very effective way of communicating this. I do disagree with using the Ten Commandments as if we were “under the Law (Torah)” rather than under God’s law (which is, granted, in the Ten Commandments). It’s not WOTM practice but the awful and erroneous theology behind it. Maybe it’s only the way Evan presents it. Maybe not.

 

[Revmitchell]

I do not disagree that using the Ten Commandments can be a very effective way of communicating this. I do disagree with using the Ten Commandments as if we were “under the Law (Torah)” rather than under God’s law (which is, granted, in the Ten Commandments). It’s not WOTM practice but the awful and erroneous theology behind it. Maybe it’s only the way Evan presents it. Maybe not.

His presentation of it is not trustworthy. There are plenty of videos on Youtube that show Comfort witnessing to people. You might take a look at those. Comfort in no way uses it in the way you perceive evan doing it.

 

[JonC]

A quote on that page. You misunderstood Comfort and took him out of context.

At face value, it seems Jesus is saying that the world will be judged for their sin “because they do not believe in Me.” That would mean that sin is “a failure to believe in Jesus.”

What????? No! If you think that I misunderstood Comfort and took him out of context then it is your responsibility to clarify the issue. I like Comfort - he's a great evangelist but a poor theologian. Here's a hint - your quote begins with "at face value." Read a bit further. Now this stops here (on this thread). I told you that I would only accept Scripture as evidence. You keep going back to these books (I know I offered Comfort as an example and I'm sorry for it....I take responsibility for distracting you with a book reference). But let's get back on track.

I offered you Scripture that stated we are not under the Law. You offered no rebuttal in the form of Scripture. Do you have any Scripture that supports your position? Are you going to accept the words of man or the Word of God?

 

[JonC]

His presentation of it is not trustworthy. There are plenty of videos on Youtube that show Comfort witnessing to people. You might take a look at those. Comfort in no way uses it in the way you perceive evan doing it.

Thank you. I have seen Comfort evangelize and preach, and I like his method (although it would not be mine). He engages his audience, and expresses genuine concern. That's about all the exposure I've had of WOTM.

 

[evangelist6589]

What????? No! If you think that I misunderstood Comfort and took him out of context then it is your responsibility to clarify the issue. I like Comfort - he's a great evangelist but a poor theologian. Here's a hint - your quote begins with "at face value." Read a bit further. Now this stops here (on this thread). I told you that I would only accept Scripture as evidence. You keep going back to these books (I know I offered Comfort as an example and I'm sorry for it....I take responsibility for distracting you with a book reference). But let's get back on track.

I offered you Scripture that stated we are not under the Law. You offered no rebuttal in the form of Scripture. Do you have any Scripture that supports your position? Are you going to accept the words of man or the Word of God?

I stand corrected on this one. I was looking at the book online and see Ray Comfort is in error. I just ordered a copy of the book USED for a penny + shipping= $4.00 to read further.

http://www.onemilliontracts.com/pdf/what_DID_Jesus_do.pdf

 

[JonC]

I stand corrected on this one. I was looking at the book online and see Ray Comfort is in error. I just ordered a copy of the book USED for a penny + shipping= $4.00 to read further.

http://www.onemilliontracts.com/pdf/what_DID_Jesus_do.pdf

I am sorry that my comment cause you to break your book spending freeze, but I'm glad you found it for a penny (plus shipping). We're being cordial (which I appreciate), but I think you may be avoiding answering my questions.

But what of the Scripture I quoted? Do you think that Paul is right or do you believe that we are all under the Law (Torah) today?

(I will say again, I believe Torah and the Ten Commandments to be expressions of God's nature and moral law....I just disagree that we are "under the Law", not that we don't use the 10 Commandments).

Here's that list again:

Here they are again, "Evangelist." I have faithfully provided references for my conclusions, but have yet received a foundation for your beliefs (other than to read Metzger's book). Let's engage the topic and find out who is in error - we both very well may have error in our views - so let's keep it to Scripture as this is the only way you will correct my "misunderstanding."

One of us is wrong - so let’s go to Scripture (not other books).

1. Show me where Gentiles are evangelized by being convicted under the Law.
2. Show me where Gentiles are actually stated as being obligated to follow Torah or the Ten Commandments.
3. Show me where Gentiles are said to have sinned because they disobeyed one of the Ten Commandments as stated in Torah.
4. Show me where it is said that Gentiles go to Hell for transgressing the Ten Commandments
5. Show me where the Law “as a Schoolmaster” applies to a Gentile audience.
6. Show me how New Testament era Gentiles had a biblical foundation.
7. Show me where God’s moral law originates with the Ten Commandments.

 

[evangelist6589]

I am sorry that my comment cause you to break your book spending freeze, but I'm glad you found it for a penny (plus shipping). We're being cordial (which I appreciate), but I think you may be avoiding answering my questions.

But what of the Scripture I quoted? Do you think that Paul is right or do you believe that we are all under the Law (Torah) today?

(I will say again, I believe Torah and the Ten Commandments to be expressions of God's nature and moral law....I just disagree that we are "under the Law", not that we don't use the 10 Commandments).

Here's that list again:

Did you even read my post????? I gave you plenty of scripture from Romans that you failed to read.

Regarding your comments on the 10 commandments read this quote from What did Jesus do? by Ray Comfort

Quote:
This argument insinuates that the Law was given only to deal with self-righteous Jews—that the Gentiles (non-Jewish people) had some superior knowl- edge and did not need the Law to show them their sin.
However, Scripture is clear that both Jews and Gentiles lack understanding: “There is none who understands . . .” (Romans 3:11). Both therefore need the Law to bring the knowledge of sin. When Paul said, “I would not have known sin except through the Law” (Romans 7:7), he didn’t add, “This is because I was a self-righteous Jew. Had I been a self- righteous Gentile, I would not have needed the Law to show me the nature of sin.” Scripture tells us for whom the Law was given:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (Romans 3:19, emphasis added)
Clearly, the Law is for everyone.
As he says clearly the 10 commandments is for everyone. Did you read the scripture that he cited and did you understand them?


My last book I bought was in February not including a donation I made in March for a book. I have however bought an ibook or 2 since that time.

 

[JonC]

You know what.....never mind. You would have never read the Scripture's I posted anyway (they are not as important to you as your method and your books). If you did you'd never understand - you'd just pick up a book and follow what ever came your way. Just forget it and preach whatever your heart desires or your books tell you to preach. Good luck...may the force be with you....live long and prosper....see a therapist....whatever floats your boat.