Do you Love YHVH?

[Jason1]

To the best of my ability.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, Yeshua Messiah, a righteous One.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.
1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.

 

[Jason1]

You have denied Yeshua is YHWH consistently in this thread. Your concept of Yeshua is the same as a Jehovah's Witness.

Please quit with the false accusations. Your hate for truth is evident.

 

[MennoSota]

Please quit with the false accusations. Your hate for truth is evident.

Is Jesus YHWH? Yes or no.

 

[Jason1]

Is Jesus YHWH? Yes or no.

I've answered this question numerous times. Is it my fault you don't care to read the answers?

 

[HankD]

The prohibition is just of mixing wool and linen

this is wrong Jason
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
Wool and linen is an example.

This is incorrect. Per the commandment, we are not to make graven images to bow down to. The temple had pictures of cherubim all over it. The mercy seat contained 2 golden cherubim, the temple 2 monster size ones in it.

These you mentioned were for temple use under control of the priesthood.

Images for private use were forbidden.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

This commandment stands alone - images are not to be made or possessed. In this mitzvah nothing in this passage is said about bowing down to the images. They are forbidden both to be possessed and/or bowed down to.

You spoke of keeping Sabbath:

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Do you put to death those of your congregation who break sabbath?

There is a multitude of sabbath mitzvouth do you keep them all?

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

I've answered this question numerous times. Is it my fault you don't care to read the answers?

Yes or no. Your evasion is apparent. You deny the deity and oneness of Jesus as being equal with God the Father. As such, for you, Yeshua's atonement is ineffective. You deny him. This is worse than your failure to obey every law in the Torah.

 

[JonShaff]

To the best of my ability.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, Yeshua Messiah, a righteous One.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.
1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.

To the best of your ability? God is Holy and demands that you keep them ALL, ALL the time. "Trying" isn't going to cut it. You are commanded to keep them all, all the time. Why do you choose to break His laws? You are lawless and disobedient when compared to His standard of Holiness. You're in a bad situation my friend.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To the best of my ability.

As JonShaff says, it won't do. 'For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he is guilty of all.'

 

[Jason1]

this is wrong Jason
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
Wool and linen is an example.

These you mentioned were for temple use under control of the priesthood.

Images for private use were forbidden.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

This commandment stands alone - images are not to be made or possessed. In this mitzvah nothing in this passage is said about bowing down to the images. They are forbidden both to be possessed and/or bowed down to.

You spoke of keeping Sabbath:

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Do you put to death those of your congregation who break sabbath?

There is a multitude of sabbath mitzvouth do you keep them all?

HankD

Hank,

Deuteronomy is the retelling of the law (summation). The garment law first appears in Lev:

Lev 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.​

Notice it is specific in what shall not be worn. Look up the words in a concordance to verify.

As per the graven image, you have to take the whole command into account. Do you really think sculputers, photographers, and artists are prohibbited? It is both foolish and wrong to suggest it because you need to ask yourself, "WHY?" did he command that. It is so you don't make things to bow down to and worship as the command goes on to state. Even YHVH himself commanded certain things to be formed such as the cherubim and the bronze snake on a pole.

There are only 7 commands in scripture regarding sabbath (oral law has over 1000). Sabbath is easy to keep and a joy. If someone breaks it we cannot stone them today because we are under US law and their judicial system. We can stone them physically by cutting off the disobedient from the congregation so they don't bring evil into our camps.

 

[Jason1]

To the best of your ability? God is Holy and demands that you keep them ALL, ALL the time. "Trying" isn't going to cut it. You are commanded to keep them all, all the time. Why do you choose to break His laws? You are lawless and disobedient when compared to His standard of Holiness. You're in a bad situation my friend.

Jon,

Have you not read that there were those who walked "blameless" before YHVH? What do you think this means?

 

[JonShaff]

Jon,

Have you not read that there were those who walked "blameless" before YHVH? What do you think this means?

We are not talking about them, we are talking about you. You, by your own admission, are condemned and disobedient. What are you going to do?

 

[Darrell C]

Oh, we have a potential HUGE problem here. Lets go to Heb 10:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins
Heb 10:27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour?
Can you see that if you willfully sin after the point of acceptance of Yeshua that the penalty is GREATER and the standard is GREATER?

Hello Jason, and welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed.

I just wanted to point out that the passage you have quoted, unfortunately, is in direct contrast to obedience to the (Covenant of) Law.

If you'll notice, the writer defines his statement in v.26...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The wilful sin is the forsaking of the assembling of the brethren, which is not "going to Church," it is a forsaking of the revelation of the New Covenant and faith in Christ. Note on v.28 that the Covenant of Law is referenced in "Moses' Law (the Mosaic Law, Covenant of Law, also called the "First Covenant" (which is the First Covenant relevant to Hebrews as the nation Israel)), and, the penalty for rejecting the Law.

Then, note in v.29 the question asked, which is, "How much worse punishment shall those who...

1. Trod underfoot the Son of GOd (that is, reject Christ);

2. Counted/considered Christ's Sacrifice unholy;

3. As a result of Point 2, counted the New Covenant as unholy;

4. Done despite, or, resisted the Spirit of Grace, or in other words, the Comforter, Who convicts the lost of sin, righteousness, and judgment.


The point being, rather than this passage supporting the keeping of the (Covenant of) Law, it warns against it, describing judgment and fiery indignation for those who seek to maintain the (Covenant of) Law, rather than embracing Christ and the New Covenant.

As one member pointed out, this has to be kept in the context of the chapter (as well as the Book), and the Writer, throughout the Chapter (and Book)...

...makes it clear the (Covenant of) Law could not make the worshiper complete in regards to remission of sins (which is only accomplished by the very Sacrifice those in view in vv.26-29 have rejected).

I might also add that the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is seen in v.29 in "doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace," because if one rejects the Comforter's (Spirit's) attempt to enlighten and convict, and one rejects the Sacrifice of Christ...

...they are in fact rejecting remission (forgiveness) of sin itself, and have no hope of being saved, because there is no other means given men in this Age.

While the sacrifices of the Old Testament Eras did provide a temporary atonement (which the Writer makes clear had to be repeatedly offered over and over again because they could not make complete (Hebrews 10:1-4)), if you read Hebrews 9:12-15 you will see that Eternal Redemption was accomplished only by Christ, and that is the only means one can be eternally redeemed.


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

Hello Jason, and welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed.

I just wanted to point out that the passage you have quoted, unfortunately, is in direct contrast to obedience to the (Covenant of) Law.

If you'll notice, the writer defines his statement in v.26...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The wilfull sin is the forsaking of the assembling of the brethren, which is not "going to Church," it is a forsaking of the revelation of the New Covenant and faith in Christ. Note on v.28 that the Covenant of Law is referenced in "Moses' Law (the Mosaic Law, Covenant of Law, also called the "First Covenant" (which is the First Covenant relevant to Hebrews as the nation Israel)), and, the penalty for rejecting the Law.

Then, note in v.29 the question asked, which is, "How much worse punishment shall those who...

1. Trod underfoot the Son of GOd (that is, reject Christ);

2. Counted/considered Christ's Sacrifice unholy;

3. As a result of Point 2, counted the New Covenant as unholy;

4. Done despite, or, resisted the Spirit of Grace, or in other words, the Comforter, Who convicts the lost of sin, righteousness, and judgment.


The point being, rather than this passage supporting the keeping of the (Covenant of) Law, it warns against it, describing judgment and fiery indignation for those who seek to maintain the (Covenant of) Law, rather than embracing Christ and the New Covenant.


God bless.

Hi Darrell,

I agree with your 4 points.

I disagree with "not going to church" is a willful sin. We are however, to gather on sabbaths and feast days according to scripture.

I also disagree with your last statement. The New covenant is a covenant where the laws of torah are written in our hearts and minds. It also has a better mediator and a helper. By not following torah we trample on Jesus's sacrifice by continuing in disobedience to the Father.

 

[JonShaff]

Hi Darrell,

I agree with your 4 points.

I disagree with "not going to church" is a willful sin. We are however, to gather on sabbaths and feast days according to scripture.

I also disagree with your last statement. The New covenant is a covenant where the laws of torah are written in our hearts and minds. It also has a better mediator and a helper. By not following torah we trample on Jesus's sacrifice by continuing in disobedience to the Father.

Where do you gather since there is no central location to gather anymore on your feast days?

 

[Jason1]

Where do you gather since there is no central location to gather anymore on your feast days?

They aren't "my" feast days, they are YHVH's:

Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of YHVH, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
​

But you do make a good point. We cannot actually "Keep" the feast days today because of no temple, but we can practice and remember them in lieu of pagan days that man created (xmas, easter). The true feast days paint the story of salvation and much can be gleaned therein.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell,

I agree with your 4 points.

I disagree with "not going to church" is a willful sin.

In the passage "forsaking of the assembling of the brethren" is a departure from Christianity, not the local assembly. The Book has as a central focus the attempt for an Hebrew to convince his Hebrew brethren that they should embrace Christ and the New Covenant. The warnings we see refer to Hebrews who forsake Christianity...and seek to remain under Law, that is, to continue practicing the Covenant of Law as it was given. The Law was given only for a temporary time, and was abrogated by the New Covenant promised by God in the Old Testament.

We are however, to gather on sabbaths and feast days according to scripture.

Show me where Christians are commanded to gather on Sabbaths and Feasts days.

If that were true, then this...


Colossians 2:15-17
King James Version (KJV)

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


...could not be true.

I also disagree with your last statement. The New covenant is a covenant where the laws of torah are written in our hearts and minds.

I agree, but, keep in mind no man "kept the Torah" prior to Pentecost, for no man received Eternal Redemption or the Eternal Indwelling of God until then.

Only Christ kept the Law in a manner where He was found guiltless of failing it.

Consider:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


So I ask you, if Israel was commanded to obey the Law, and did not, and because of this a New Covenant was promised, why would we return to the Covenant that has been done away with (as made clear both implicitly and explicitly in Scripture)?


Hebrews 7:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Hebrews 8:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

It also has a better mediator and a helper.

Agreed.

See again the contrast between what was (the Covenant of Law), and what is (the New Covenant):


Hebrews 12:18-24
King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


In Hebrew 9:15 we are told that the transgressions that were under the Law were eternally redeemed by Christ...in His Sacrifice/Offering of Himself. That is what the Writer is speaking about in v.23, in referring to the "Spirits of Just men made 'perfect'." "Perfection" refers to completion, a bringing to an end, and what the Writer states in many places in Hebrews is that the Law...

...could not, and cannot do that.

See Hebrews 10:1-4 and cross reference with Hebrews 10:10-14.

You, my friend, have not come to the mount of the Law, but to the Mount of the New Covenant. You do not want to return to that.

By not following torah we trample on Jesus's sacrifice by continuing in disobedience to the Father.

We trod underfoot the Son of God by rejecting the Gospel, not by "not following the Law."

While we have the indwelling of God to make us walk in His Statutes and to keep His judgments, we still remain in unredeemed flesh, so while we are at home in the body, we will still be impacted by the fallen nature of the flesh.

If you have any doubts about this, just fast. The flesh will begin speaking to you sooner rather than later, lol.

Okay, I am out of time, but thanks for the response.


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

In the passage "forsaking of the assembling of the brethren" is a departure from Christianity, not the local assembly. The Book has as a central focus the attempt for an Hebrew to convince his Hebrew brethren that they should embrace Christ and the New Covenant. The warnings we see refer to Hebrews who forsake Christianity...and seek to remain under Law, that is, to continue practicing the Covenant of Law as it was given. The Law was given only for a temporary time, and was abrogated by the New Covenant promised by God in the Old Testament.




Show me where Christians are commanded to gather on Sabbaths and Feasts days.

If that were true, then this...


Colossians 2:15-17
King James Version (KJV)

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


...could not be true.

Your understanding of these verses are wrong. They are saying don't let anybody judge your for keeping or for how you keep them. Not for not keeping them. They weren't in the first place as gentiles

Torah law:

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 ‘These are the appointed times of יהוה, set-apart gatherings which you are to proclaim at their appointed times.​

I agree, but, keep in mind no man "kept the Torah" prior to Pentecost, for no man received Eternal Redemption or the Eternal Indwelling of God until then.

Only Christ kept the Law in a manner where He was found guiltless of failing it.

Consider:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


So I ask you, if Israel was commanded to obey the Law, and did not, and because of this a New Covenant was promised, why would we return to the Covenant that has been done away with (as made clear both implicitly and explicitly in Scripture)?

You honestly think nobody was ever saved in the OT? The church misunderstands salvation.

The New Covenant is the exact same deal, but with better promises. "If you obey me I will be your mighty one and you will be my people". This time around, we have a better mediator, a helper, and our slate whipped clean.

Hebrews 7:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Hebrews 8:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Agreed.

See again the contrast between what was (the Covenant of Law), and what is (the New Covenant):


Hebrews 12:18-24
King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


In Hebrew 9:15 we are told that the transgressions that were under the Law were eternally redeemed by Christ...in His Sacrifice/Offering of Himself. That is what the Writer is speaking about in v.23, in referring to the "Spirits of Just men made 'perfect'." "Perfection" refers to completion, a bringing to an end, and what the Writer states in many places in Hebrews is that the Law...

...could not, and cannot do that.

See Hebrews 10:1-4 and cross reference with Hebrews 10:10-14.

You, my friend, have not come to the mount of the Law, but to the Mount of the New Covenant. You do not want to return to that.

Hebrews is talking all about the Priesthood and the day of atonement. It doesn't do away with torah.

We trod underfoot the Son of God by rejecting the Gospel, not by "not following the Law."

While we have the indwelling of God to make us walk in His Statutes and to keep His judgments, we still remain in unredeemed flesh, so while we are at home in the body, we will still be impacted by the fallen nature of the flesh.

If you have any doubts about this, just fast. The flesh will begin speaking to you sooner rather than later, lol.

Okay, I am out of time, but thanks for the response.


God bless.

I agree with this last statement. It feels like everyone on here is double minded: "We can't obey so don't put us under any laws, yet we are obedient". Church doctrine prevents one from seeing clearly. The law is both good and bad in your eyes and the opinions expressed are wishy washy. Obedience to torah is always good, always.

 

[Darrell C]

Your understanding of these verses are wrong.

Not hard to understand a clear cut statement that no man is to judge me concerning holy days. If you judge me because I do not keep the Sabbath, then you violate that teaching.

They are saying don't let anybody judge your for keeping or for how you keep them. Not for not keeping them.

It covers all of that. I will not judge you, or anyone else if you feel you have to keep the Sabbath. Jews are nowhere in Scripture told they are to forsake their heritage, so I view nothing wrong with a Jewish believer observing the Sabbath.

It's when you say "You must keep the Sabbath" that one violates the Word of God.

They weren't in the first place as gentiles

You think Paul was telling them something that did not apply to them? Now that is a remarkable thing.

Believe it or not...Gentiles have holy days as well. And whether they are legitimate or not, we still go back to we are not to judge men concerning holy days.

Torah law:
Lev 23:3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 ‘These are the appointed times of יהוה, set-apart gatherings which you are to proclaim at their appointed times.

So show me where that negates the teachings of the New Testament for Christians.

You honestly think nobody was ever saved in the OT?

I didn't say that, lol.

From an eternal perspective, those who were justified by faith were "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was secure, however, there is a big difference between being justified by faith as an Old Testament believer and the Old Testament believer being redeemed by Christ, his sins atoned for by Christ's Sacrifice, and having received the Promise of the New Birth and Eternal Indwelling of God.

Its a rather complicated issue but one in which, if more people understood, we would see far less confusion as to what the revelation of the New Testament means.

To begin we could look at Ezekiel 36:24-27 and note that this is a promise, it has not happened yet. We can focus on the promise of the indwelling of God, and look to Christ's Own teachings which show that it has still not been fulfilled here:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


We can say without controversy that this had not happened yet. For this to be fulfilled it was necessary that what He says is going to happen, that He is going to leave, must happen first. We see the Unity of the Son of God (Jesus), the Spirit of God (the Comforter), and God the Father in this chapter, first noting Christ states when He sends the Spirit "He will come."

Then...


John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and how that relates to Eternal Indwelling has to be understood. We see that Christ speaks of what is going to happen, which makes it clear...it was not happening at the time He is giving the teaching.

I am out of time, so will just post a few more passages on this issue, in which we seek to clarify the distinctive and dramatic difference of the Ministry of God in the hearts and lives of men in Old Testament Eras and how He ministers today:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

No-one had yet received the Promise of the Spirit, and would not until Christ was glorified (which is best viewed as fulfillment of John 17 in which we see the Son of God restored to the Glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the world).

Again, in this next passage...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


A few points to consider is that the Promise of the Father which they heard of Christ (was taught by Him, which we just looked at an example in John 14, and can also consult John 15-16 (though 15 is limited)), is defined as the "Baptism with the Holy Ghost." John the Baptist clarifies that Christ is the Baptizer Who will Baptize with the Spirit, and so we seek to understand what this means.

I will suggest to you that in view is without question "the Promise of the Father," which is the indwelling of God on an eternal basis. "Baptism" speaks of identification with the Baptizer, cleansing, and immersion.

In other words, we are "immersed into God." That is what was promised, and we see the Spirit come in Acts 2.

So to answer your question...

You honestly think nobody was ever saved in the OT?

Yes, men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David were "saved," but, they had not yet obtained Eternal Redemption through the offering of Christ:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Continued...

 

[Jason1]

Not hard to understand a clear cut statement that no man is to judge me concerning holy days. If you judge me because I do not keep the Sabbath, then you violate that teaching.




It covers all of that. I will not judge you, or anyone else if you feel you have to keep the Sabbath. Jews are nowhere in Scripture told they are to forsake their heritage, so I view nothing wrong with a Jewish believer observing the Sabbath.

It's when you say "You must keep the Sabbath" that one violates the Word of God.




You think Paul was telling them something that did not apply to them? Now that is a remarkable thing.

Believe it or not...Gentiles have holy days as well. And whether they are legitimate or not, we still go back to we are not to judge men concerning holy days.




So show me where that negates the teachings of the New Testament for Christians.




I didn't say that, lol.

From an eternal perspective, those who were justified by faith were "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was secure, however, there is a big difference between being justified by faith as an Old Testament believer and the Old Testament believer being redeemed by Christ, his sins atoned for by Christ's Sacrifice, and having received the Promise of the New Birth and Eternal Indwelling of God.

Its a rather complicated issue but one in which, if more people understood, we would see far less confusion as to what the revelation of the New Testament means.

To begin we could look at Ezekiel 36:24-27 and note that this is a promise, it has not happened yet. We can focus on the promise of the indwelling of God, and look to Christ's Own teachings which show that it has still not been fulfilled here:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


We can say without controversy that this had not happened yet. For this to be fulfilled it was necessary that what He says is going to happen, that He is going to leave, must happen first. We see the Unity of the Son of God (Jesus), the Spirit of God (the Comforter), and God the Father in this chapter, first noting Christ states when He sends the Spirit "He will come."

Then...


John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and how that relates to Eternal Indwelling has to be understood. We see that Christ speaks of what is going to happen, which makes it clear...it was not happening at the time He is giving the teaching.

I am out of time, so will just post a few more passages on this issue, in which we seek to clarify the distinctive and dramatic difference of the Ministry of God in the hearts and lives of men in Old Testament Eras and how He ministers today:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

No-one had yet received the Promise of the Spirit, and would not until Christ was glorified (which is best viewed as fulfillment of John 17 in which we see the Son of God restored to the Glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the world).

Again, in this next passage...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


A few points to consider is that the Promise of the Father which they heard of Christ (was taught by Him, which we just looked at an example in John 14, and can also consult John 15-16 (though 15 is limited)), is defined as the "Baptism with the Holy Ghost." John the Baptist clarifies that Christ is the Baptizer Who will Baptize with the Spirit, and so we seek to understand what this means.

I will suggest to you that in view is without question "the Promise of the Father," which is the indwelling of God on an eternal basis. "Baptism" speaks of identification with the Baptizer, cleansing, and immersion.

In other words, we are "immersed into God." That is what was promised, and we see the Spirit come in Acts 2.

So to answer your question...





Yes, men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David were "saved," but, they had not yet obtained Eternal Redemption through the offering of Christ:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Continued...

It'd sure be easier to respond if your posts were shorter.

Your understanding in the first half of your post is in error. We are to judge according to scripture as to what is right and wrong.

Lev_19:17 ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Reprove your neighbour, for certain, and bear no sin because of him.
​

What was being talked about in those passages was as I stated before. Proper understanding of what is happening key.

 

[Darrell C]

The church misunderstands salvation.

In large part, yes, I agree with that.

The question is, what are they misunderstanding?

Most equate salvation in the Old Testament with salvation in Christ in the New Testament. That is the fundamental error of most, and it is bred by failure to address these issues directly.

If you think Peter was saved, let me ask you this...can one be saved (in a New Covenant sense) and not believe the Lord has risen? That is true of all the disciples:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

You probably have never given this much thought, but, if you consult all of the Gospels you will see this in each.

The problem was that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to them yet. They were told, true, and had the Gospel of Christ in Prophecy, but, they had not the understanding:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

The New Covenant is the exact same deal, but with better promises.

No, Jason, the New Covenant is not the exact same deal.

The Covenant of Law did not have remission of sins on an eternal basis. It did not have the Eternal Indwelling of GOd, It did not have Christ our Great High Priest. It did not offer Reconciliation to God.

Men were justified by faith, to be sure, but let's not equate that with being Justified by the Blood of Christ:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham is said to be justified by both works and faith, and this is true, but, we can't have the Justification which is through the Blood (Death) of Christ...before His death.

Scripture doesn't teach that, neither should we.

And note v.25 is saying the exact same thing Hebrews 9:15 states, that is, that the sins of the Old Testament Saint were overcome by the Righteousness of Christ, through His Blood (Death, Offering of Himself).

As we saw earlier, "The Law could not make perfect because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins." Hebrews 10:1 & 4.

However...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


That is the promise of God...


Hebrews 8:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



...found in the very Promise of the New Covenant.


Continued...