Do you Love YHVH?

[Alcott]

If I'm thinking of the right verse that you are, he is talking about oral law: .....

If you claim circumcision is about oral law, you're being totally dishonest:

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying:
‘When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall remain in the blood of her purification for thirty-three days; she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed. [Leviticus 12:1-4].

Incidentally, if there are women in your life, do they hold to this unclean and purification?

 

[Darrell C]

"If you obey me I will be your mighty one and you will be my people". This time around, we have a better mediator, a helper, and our slate whipped clean.

"This time around?" lol

Hebrews is talking all about the Priesthood and the day of atonement. It doesn't do away with torah.

Hebrews speaks of many things, and it specifically warns Hebrews not to remain under the Law, as Paul often does in his writings:

I have given you several passages that state just that, so, until you're ready to address those passages, there is not much I can do to help.

I agree with this last statement.

Okay.

It feels like everyone on here is double minded: "We can't obey so don't put us under any laws, yet we are obedient".

I would agree some go to the extreme and overlook both our ability and responsibility to be in obedience to God, however, we have to consider that Christians are going through a growth process, and not all are going to be obedient perfectly.

This is why John uses terms like little children, young men, and fathers. This is why Paul uses the term "babes."

I would suggest to you that is it highly unlikely that babes in Christ are even aware of much they are to be in obedience to, much less have the ability to carry it out.

Church doctrine prevents one from seeing clearly. The law is both good and bad in your eyes and the opinions expressed are wishy washy.

Well, you see, you just bore false witness against me, because I do not have a view that the Law is both good and bad, so where does that leave you Jason? You just broke the Law of God.

So what Religion are you, exactly. You seem here to deny that you belong to the Church.

Obedience to torah is always good, always.

Obedience to the principles taught in the Law are indeed always good, but, if you follow the Law, and offer up sacrifice for sin, then you will have violated New Covenant principles. And I clarify I mean offering up sacrifice for the purpose it was from Abel to the last legitimate sacrifice before the Cross.

Its a catch 22, my friend, you cannot do both.

The issue is understanding that the provision of the Old Testament was a temporal and temporary provision, such as animal sacrifice for temporary remission as opposed to the Sacrifice of Christ for Eternal Redemption and Remission, and manna in the Wilderness as opposed to the Bread of Life (Christ). We see significance in the Covenants established in the differing Eras, and if we do not distinguish the differences (i.e., the Abrahamic Covenant was not the Mosaic, the Mosaic is not the New) we will have a Theology that does not represent the revelation God has given us in this Age.


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

In large part, yes, I agree with that.

The question is, what are they misunderstanding?

Most equate salvation in the Old Testament with salvation in Christ in the New Testament. That is the fundamental error of most, and it is bred by failure to address these issues directly.

If you think Peter was saved, let me ask you this...can one be saved (in a New Covenant sense) and not believe the Lord has risen? That is true of all the disciples:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

You probably have never given this much thought, but, if you consult all of the Gospels you will see this in each.

The problem was that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to them yet. They were told, true, and had the Gospel of Christ in Prophecy, but, they had not the understanding:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.





No, Jason, the New Covenant is not the exact same deal.

The Covenant of Law did not have remission of sins on an eternal basis. It did not have the Eternal Indwelling of GOd, It did not have Christ our Great High Priest. It did not offer Reconciliation to God.

Men were justified by faith, to be sure, but let's not equate that with being Justified by the Blood of Christ:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham is said to be justified by both works and faith, and this is true, but, we can't have the Justification which is through the Blood (Death) of Christ...before His death.

Scripture doesn't teach that, neither should we.

And note v.25 is saying the exact same thing Hebrews 9:15 states, that is, that the sins of the Old Testament Saint were overcome by the Righteousness of Christ, through His Blood (Death, Offering of Himself).

As we saw earlier, "The Law could not make perfect because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins." Hebrews 10:1 & 4.

However...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


That is the promise of God...


Hebrews 8:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



...found in the very Promise of the New Covenant.


Continued...

Salvation is always the same. Faith in YHVH and obedience to His commandments through covenant.

The new covenant helps us obey (the part Israel had a hard time with). Redemption (buying back) and cleansing (through yeshua's blood) is part of those better promises. Now we obey from the heart with a clean slate. Salvation is still by Faith in YHVH and obedience to His commandments.

It is a very simple formula and does require something of the individual. Submit to the King and be His subjects.

 

[Jason1]

If you claim circumcision is about oral law, you're being totally dishonest:

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying:
‘When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall remain in the blood of her purification for thirty-three days; she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed. [Leviticus 12:1-4].

Incidentally, if there are women in your life, do they hold to this unclean and purification?

Alcott, we were talking about NT passages in Paul, not the written law. Paul uses "circumcision" when referring to the jews and "uncircumcision" when referring to gentiles.

You know this

 

[Darrell C]

It'd sure be easier to respond if your posts were shorter.

Well, "easy" seldom accomplishes anything worthwhile. It is not easy to understand the many things that have to be considered, and it is going to take work on your part.

Your understanding in the first half of your post is in error.

Okay, so show me why.

We are to judge according to scripture as to what is right and wrong.

And you feel I do not do that? You are noticing that I am providing Scripture to support my proposals, right?

Lev_19:17 ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Reprove your neighbour, for certain, and bear no sin because of him.

So does this mean you feel you need to reprove me? I am okay with that, but, could you address the Scripture as well?

What was being talked about in those passages was as I stated before. Proper understanding of what is happening key.

I agree.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Salvation is always the same.

And with this I return you to your regularly scheduled thread, lol.

I have given you numerous passages which show beyond doubt that "salvation" is not always the same.

The disciples, for example, were "saved" in an eternal sense (meaning, with the exception of Judas, their eternal destiny was secure). but, they still had to offer up sacrifice for sin until Christ died. So in that day, yes, the feasts were still mandatory, according to the Law. But, you will see no directive, command, or exhortation to Christians to partake or observe Passover.

So I wish you well, Jason, as you continue to work this out. If you decide you would like to address the Scripture and points made thus far, let me know.

But as for me, I'm running late, and have to get going.


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

And with this I return you to your regularly scheduled thread, lol.

I have given you numerous passages which show beyond doubt that "salvation" is not always the same.

The disciples, for example, were "saved" in an eternal sense (meaning, with the exception of Judas, their eternal destiny was secure). but, they still had to offer up sacrifice for sin until Christ died. So in that day, yes, the feasts were still mandatory, according to the Law. But, you will see no directive, command, or exhortation to Christians to partake or observe Passover.

So I wish you well, Jason, as you continue to work this out. If you decide you would like to address the Scripture and points made thus far, let me know.

But as for me, I'm running late, and have to get going.


God bless.

Lol, christians are not what Jesus came to make. He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was calling those lost back to covenant obedience.

Christians don't have a whole separate law from YHVH. They are to join themselves to Israel and be part of her covenants. Only Israel has the covenants (look it up). Outside of this are dogs and thieves trying to enter a different way...

 

[Alcott]

Alcott, we were talking about NT passages in Paul, not the written law. Paul uses "circumcision" when referring to the jews and "uncircumcision" when referring to gentiles.

Yes or No: if you are circumcised, according to the law, are you a debtor to the whole law?

 

[Jason1]

Yes or No: if you are circumcised, according to the law, are you a debtor to the whole law?

Of coarse. You enter covenant with the Father and you are now under His Kingship". That means you obey the King's decrees and perform His will. It is His kingdom which I openly submit myself to.

 

[Darrell C]

Lol, christians are not what Jesus came to make. He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was calling those lost back to covenant obedience.

So the Sacrifice of Christ was for the lost sheep of Israel only?

Christ ministered to the lost sheep of Israel only...only in His fulfilling of His role as the Promised Messiah. This is a distinct Ministry from His Role as Savior of the World.

To think that To think He came only for the lost sheep of Israel begs a few questions:

1. Has God reneged on His promise in the Abrahamic Covenant (that all families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham);

2. Why has Israel been blinded?


Consider:


Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


The Covenant of Law was established with Israel, not the world. Provision for Gentiles has always been in place, but, we see above Christ's ministry towards Gentiles, which we do not see in regards to His Ministry in Israel.

Christ was made under the Law, and ministered in the Law, and again I would point out that these distinctions will make or break your understanding of Scripture.

Christians don't have a whole separate law from YHVH. They are to join themselves to Israel and be part of her covenants. Only Israel has the covenants (look it up). Outside of this are dogs and thieves trying to enter a different way...

What religion are you, Jason?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Of coarse. You enter covenant with the Father and you are now under His Kingship". That means you obey the King's decrees and perform His will. It is His kingdom which I openly submit myself to.

Have you been born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God?


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

So the Sacrifice of Christ was for the lost sheep of Israel only?

Christ ministered to the lost sheep of Israel only...only in His fulfilling of His role as the Promised Messiah. This is a distinct Ministry from His Role as Savior of the World.

To think that To think He came only for the lost sheep of Israel begs a few questions:

1. Has God reneged on His promise in the Abrahamic Covenant (that all families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham);

2. Why has Israel been blinded?


Consider:


Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


The Covenant of Law was established with Israel, not the world. Provision for Gentiles has always been in place, but, we see above Christ's ministry towards Gentiles, which we do not see in regards to His Ministry in Israel.

Christ was made under the Law, and ministered in the Law, and again I would point out that these distinctions will make or break your understanding of Scripture.




What religion are you, Jason?


God bless.

Do you believe the master's words?

Mat_15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”
Mat 10:5 Yeshua sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronites,
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.
​

He came to repair the breech with the northern kingdom. He died for their sin of idolatry which got them divorced and cut off from the land.

You are right, however, that Israel was to be a light to the nations. They failed in this task miserably by disobeying the Father's commandments.

Why do you think the Good News goes to the jew first?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Messiah, for it is the power of Elohim for deliverance to everyone who believes, to the Yehuḏite first and also to the Greek.
​

It is to cause Israel to repent (walk in covenant) so they can be that light. Then gentiles (those without covenant) can join themselves to Israel and be part of YHVH's people (rom 11). Sadly, most jews rejected the message so Elohim had a plan to go to the gentiles where His people (northern israel) were scattered - through all the nations. He is calling the prodigal son back home.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you believe the master's words?

Mat_15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”
Mat 10:5 Yeshua sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronites,
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.
​

He came to repair the breech with the northern kingdom. He died for their sin of idolatry which got them divorced and cut off from the land.

You are right, however, that Israel was to be a light to the nations. They failed in this task miserably by disobeying the Father's commandments.

Why do you think the Good News goes to the jew first?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Messiah, for it is the power of Elohim for deliverance to everyone who believes, to the Yehuḏite first and also to the Greek.
​

It is to cause Israel to repent (walk in covenant) so they can be that light. Then gentiles (those without covenant) can join themselves to Israel and be part of YHVH's people (rom 11). Sadly, most jews rejected the message so Elohim had a plan to go to the gentiles where His people (northern israel) were scattered - through all the nations. He is calling the prodigal son back home.

It's pretty obvious, Jason, that you have no desire for discussion or debate, but want to preach your religion to others. And while I don't have a problem with people doing so, even when it is a faith so distinct from Christianity, I don't really have an interest in participating in a thread where I am talked at instead of talked to.

It is also pretty obvious you are not reading the responses to your proposals, for at no time have I said "Israel would be a light to the nations," what I posted was the Word of God which made it clear that Christ would be a Covenant for the people and a light unto the Gentiles."

As I said, when you are ready to do the work, and have a discussion, let me know. My only interest is in what the Word of God has to say, not what people have to say about the Word of God.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe the master's words?

Mat_15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”
Mat 10:5 Yeshua sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronites,
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.
​

He came to repair the breech with the northern kingdom. He died for their sin of idolatry which got them divorced and cut off from the land.

You are right, however, that Israel was to be a light to the nations. They failed in this task miserably by disobeying the Father's commandments.

Why do you think the Good News goes to the jew first?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Messiah, for it is the power of Elohim for deliverance to everyone who believes, to the Yehuḏite first and also to the Greek.
​

It is to cause Israel to repent (walk in covenant) so they can be that light. Then gentiles (those without covenant) can join themselves to Israel and be part of YHVH's people (rom 11). Sadly, most jews rejected the message so Elohim had a plan to go to the gentiles where His people (northern israel) were scattered - through all the nations. He is calling the prodigal son back home.

What did you do to get saved?

 

[HankD]

Hank,

Deuteronomy is the retelling of the law (summation). The garment law first appears in Lev:

Lev 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.​

Notice it is specific in what shall not be worn. Look up the words in a concordance to verify.

As per the graven image, you have to take the whole command into account. Do you really think sculputers, photographers, and artists are prohibbited? It is both foolish and wrong to suggest it because you need to ask yourself, "WHY?" did he command that. It is so you don't make things to bow down to and worship as the command goes on to state. Even YHVH himself commanded certain things to be formed such as the cherubim and the bronze snake on a pole.

There are only 7 commands in scripture regarding sabbath (oral law has over 1000). Sabbath is easy to keep and a joy. If someone breaks it we cannot stone them today because we are under US law and their judicial system. We can stone them physically by cutting off the disobedient from the congregation so they don't bring evil into our camps.

Jason you have many excuses just like everyone else.

So if you had the opportunity you would go around killing people for not keeping the Sabbath.
We have others who kill us because we are infidels.

We call them terrorists.

So, if you had the legal opportunity you would kill us sabbath breakers.
After all it is better to obey God than men.

Regardless, break one law one time you are doomed.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

HankD

 

[Jason1]

Jason you have many excuses just like everyone else.

So if you had the opportunity you would go around killing people for not keeping the Sabbath.
We have others who kill us because we are infidels.

We call them terrorists.

So, if you had the legal opportunity you would kill us sabbath breakers.
After all it is better to obey God than men.

Regardless, break one law one time you are doomed.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

HankD

The verse you quoted is correct. Moses does accuse you when you break the torah of YHVH. It is what we shall be judged by. I hope you are found obedient on judgment day and worthy to gain eternal life.

 

[Yeshua1]

The verse you quoted is correct. Moses does accuse you when you break the torah of YHVH. It is what we shall be judged by. I hope you are found obedient on judgment day and worthy to gain eternal life.

NONE of us are worthy in ourselves to be saved, as that is what the death of Christ provided for us, as NONE of us can keep the Law as God demanded, but He did for our sakes!

 

[Jason1]

NONE of us are worthy in ourselves to be saved, as that is what the death of Christ provided for us, as NONE of us can keep the Law as God demanded, but He did for our sakes!

So now what is your response? Obey in newness of life or let him do it for you and you do what your flesh desires?

 

[Yeshua1]

So now what is your response? Obey in newness of life or let him do it for you and you do what your flesh desires?

The answer is to do what the Bible declares to do to be saved, and its faith alone Grace alone!

 

[HankD]

Hank,

Deuteronomy is the retelling of the law (summation). The garment law first appears in Lev:

Lev 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.​

Notice it is specific in what shall not be worn. Look up the words in a concordance to verify.

I don't need a concordance it might be specific here but in other places it is not.

You cannot do it specifically or generally since both mitzvouth (specific and general) exist in the Torah.

As per the graven image, you have to take the whole command into account. Do you really think sculputers, photographers, and artists are prohibbited?

Absolutely!

It is both foolish and wrong to suggest it because you need to ask yourself, "WHY?" did he command that. It is so you don't make things to bow down to and worship as the command goes on to state. Even YHVH himself commanded certain things to be formed such as the cherubim and the bronze snake on a pole.

It is not foolish. The "why" does not matter. God said not to make or possess images of any kind to have in your private possession.

God told Moses to make a ("fiery serpent" Heb. saraph), Moses made a ("brazen serpent" nechosheth).
A saraph is a snake set on fire, a nechosheth is a brass image of a snake.

There are only 7 commands in scripture regarding sabbath (oral law has over 1000). Sabbath is easy to keep and a joy. If someone breaks it we cannot stone them today because we are under US law and their judicial system. We can stone them physically by cutting off the disobedient from the congregation so they don't bring evil into our camps.

So if you had the legal opportunity you would kill me if I broke the sabbath?

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

When you turn on a light, there is a small fire within the bulb.
When you start a car there is fire in each of the cylinders.
When you use a stove there is fire even in an electric stove things will burn.

If you make the excuse that an electric stove has no fire but you burn something on the sabbath on an electric stove and there is fire you are worthy of death and you are cut off from God with no restoration possible.

One infraction and you are doomed.

Not so with Jesus.

Matthew 11
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

HankD