Doctrine or emotionalism.

[HankD]

But, again the thread isn't about an either - or, but the when.

The OP view is that doctrine must be present for true worship. So, immediately following the call to worship, the worship by teaching and presenting doctrine must be accomplished.

From that might in some instances come emotion, but the modern church produces emotional settings first and then doctrine. Certainly, they may include doctrine in the emotional settings, but doctrine is secondary to enhancing the emotional, not the primary to be the enhancer of the emotional.

My "emotions" are on the altar for Him to do with what He pleases, I don't dissect them from my essential being.or try to prioritize in my essential being.
I think in reality we all do this.

 

[agedman]

My "emotions" are on the altar for Him to do with what He pleases, I don't dissect them from my essential being.or try to prioritize in my essential being.
I think in reality we all do this.

But, do your emotions drive your doctrine, or doctrine application and understanding result in the emotional expressions?

The modern church would seem to place the priority upon gatherings geared to heightening the emotions and then attempt to instill some doctrine.

Then would the doctrine then have its foundation upon what it is emotionally tied and changeable with the emotional alignments?

 

[HankD]

But, do your emotions drive your doctrine, or doctrine application and understanding result in the emotional expressions?

The modern church would seem to place the priority upon gatherings geared to heightening the emotions and then attempt to instill some doctrine.

Then would the doctrine then have its foundation upon what it is emotionally tied and changeable with the emotional alignments?

I think you are too emotionally involved with "emotion" to be rational.

 

[JonShaff]

As to the song: it's incredibly emotional, but theological rubbish.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

This straightforward, explicit, milk-of-the-Word maxim nullifies every sentimental notion of the song.

Are you serious? This is one of the worst proof texting i have ever seen.

Read the next verse!

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

He's not talking about a heavenly vision...he's talking about the realities of the Glorious Gospel.

 

[agedman]

Those who attend a modern church in which especially the pre - message music is based upon highly emotional presentation, what would the church reaction be to the following?

Single song sung without instruments as a call to worship.

Message based on teaching doctrine of the Scriptures.

Confession of sin by the saints and seeking the cleansing of the Holy Spirit.

Prayers offered by multiple members as God impresses each to verbalize both praise and need.

Final hymn sung in dedication and gratitude.

​

Could the assembly recognize such as worship, or would they depart in disappointment?

What of those in the typical Baptist church?

What of those in the more Brethren style Baptist church?

Thoughts?

 

[JonShaff]

Those who attend a modern church in which especially the pre - message music is based upon highly emotional presentation, what would the church reaction be to the following?

Single song sung without instruments as a call to worship.

Message based on teaching doctrine of the Scriptures.

Confession of sin by the saints and seeking the cleansing of the Holy Spirit.

Prayers offered by multiple members as God impresses each to verbalize both praise and need.

Final hymn sung in dedication and gratitude.

​

Could the assembly recognize such as worship, or would they depart in disappointment?

What of those in the typical Baptist church?

What of those in the more Brethren style Baptist church?

Thoughts?

This is kind of the order/style of our services. But because we encourage people to take part in the service and to "Give God praise and edify the saints"--hence *service* (serve/give)--people get an opportunity to sing or testify.

 

[agedman]

This is kind of the order/style of our services. But because we encourage people to take part in the service and to "Give God praise and edify the saints"--hence *service* (serve/give)--people get an opportunity to sing or testify.

Interesting.

So, how is the order typically laid out for a morning worship time in the assembly?

 

[JonShaff]

Interesting.

So, how is the order typically laid out for a morning worship time in the assembly?

Announcements

Prayer--call to worship

Song

Repeat Church Wide Memory verse

Testimony

Offering

Prayer/Confession

Congregationals

Individuals singing "songs hymns and spiritual songs" to one another

Preaching

Doxology

 

[Yeshua1]

A qualified "yes," depending on what you mean by a Reformed view. Explain what you mean by a Reformed view of worship.

Worship only allows what God stated it was in the Bible period, so no plug in electronics, no modern songs for example!

 

[HankD]

Personally, I think "emotionalism" is a Non-Issue.

 

[rlvaughn]

Worship only allows what God stated it was in the Bible period, so no plug in electronics, no modern songs for example!

Not sure that gets to heart of the regulative principle of worship, but is at least related. For example, "no modern songs" clearly fits those who insist on exclusive psalmody, but wouldn't fit out church, which sings hymns in addition to psalms (actually, hymns much more so than metrical psalms). Here is the way our church states the concept of biblical sufficiency for church gatherings:

The sufficiency of Scripture for all matters of faith and practice insists that our congregational gatherings be restricted to those elements that Scripture requires – praying, thanksgiving, praising , singing, Scripture reading, preaching/teaching, giving, observing the ordinances, ordination and sending, testimonies, greetings, reporting the Lord’s work, decision-making and church discipline. Any element must be understood from a command, approved example or necessary implication of Scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not sure that gets to heart of the regulative principle of worship, but is at least related. For example, "no modern songs" clearly fits those who insist on exclusive psalmody, but wouldn't fit out church, which sings hymns in addition to psalms (actually, hymns much more so than metrical psalms). Here is the way our church states the concept of biblical sufficiency for church gatherings:

I am not against have a more restricted form of worship, but to me this is more of what the Confessions stated, not what the scriptures would allow for themselves!

 

[rlvaughn]

Not sure I'm following you. Are you thinking of a statement such as is found in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, 22.1?

"...the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures."

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes
King David pleased the Lord by dancing in joy when the Ark returned, and don't think many holding to that view would welcome that worship style!

 

[Aaron]

So, I want to be sure I get this right. It's not wrong, but your're against it. Is that correct?

I haven't said. You just can't use the Psalms to justify that form of Christian worship. The early church didn't use instruments. They weren't used in the synagogues. Their use isn't described or prescribed in the NT. The Eastern church shuns them to this day.

No, you said nothing about types and shadows. You are now adding that in to the discussion. My impression of your view was quite different from "types and shadows."

In my very first post I said:

"Commandments" in the Psalms to use musical instruments are more properly interpreted in the same way that the commandments to kill bulls and sheep and to sprinkle their blood are interpreted.​

As for there being no imperative to use them, there are grammatical imperatives to praise the Lord with instruments all through the Psalms--which are not part of the law.

As are "grammatical imperatives" (LOL) to worship with sacrifice and burnt offering. David instituted the use of instruments in the tabernacle, and wrote many of the Psalms for tabernacle worship. So the Psalms were considered part of the law. John 10:34. John 15:25.

 

[Aaron]

Are you serious? This is one of the worst proof texting i have ever seen.

Read the next verse!

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

He's not talking about a heavenly vision...he's talking about the realities of the Glorious Gospel.

Then "I can only imagine" is denying the revelation, too. LOL

But you can't imagine it. Tell me, O enlightened one. Can you imagine your glorified body? Can you imagine purity and holiness with no stain of sin whatever? Can you imagine the bliss of eternal worship?

Can you imagine an infinite God? Can you imagine the Trinity?

You might think you can, but if you can, you imagine a small God indeed. These things are too big to imagine, and what is in store is profaned by the vain imaginations of the author of the song in question.

 

[rlvaughn]

YesKing David pleased the Lord by dancing in joy when the Ark returned, and don't think many holding to that view would welcome that worship style!

Most make a distinction between New Testament and Old Testament worship.

 

[Jerome]

Lest this thread wander from the intent, let me remind the readers that of the desire expressed in the OP. It is not to explore the use of instruments

Yet you keep posting about them, and not having them in your model church service:

Spurgeon didn’t have musical instruments in the worship.

Jubilee Singers...sang A-cappella...They would not have brought in to the worship instruments

what would the church reaction be to the following?

Single song sung without instruments as a call to worship.​

What would be the sentiment seen if a modern church turned off all things electrical and mechanical...Melodies unadulterated by worldly noise?

 

[agedman]

Yet you keep posting about them, and not having them in your model church service:

Was I not responding to posts?

Perhaps there is more you can add?

 

[Jerome]

Was I not responding to posts?

You were asking for feedback on your order of service notions: "no electrical/mechanical/wordly noise" and "simple song sung without instruments." Those were your dictates. But it's not about instruments at all? Huh? Sure sounds like it is to you.

My post on the Fisk Jubilee Singers singing for Spurgeon said nothing at all about instruments. I'm quite puzzled why you would bring that up, with not a peep on how Spurgeon was so moved by, and crafted his sermon to, their song.