Does All Mean All...Does World mean All

[MB]

In our fallen sin natures, we were enslaved, as could not even desire to get back to our maker!

Prove it with something other than your imagination.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Avoid it all you want. You still teach a doctrine of Universalism of damnation. You just cannot admit that only Lot will be saved. Your philosophy is way more of Satan than what you allegedly claim of me.

Universalism of damnation would only be if all humanity were justly imprisoned in hell for eternity.
But, we know that God has chosen, elected and predestined people unto salvation.

You think that what God clearly tells us about his Sovereign is of Satan? I say that because, I don't have a philosophy. I have scripture that speaks, over and over again about the Sovereign choice of God. I am attaching a list of all the verses. Let God's word convince you.

 

[timtofly]

Universalism of damnation would only be if all humanity were justly imprisoned in hell for eternity.
But, we know that God has chosen, elected and predestined people unto salvation.

You think that what God clearly tells us about his Sovereign is of Satan? I say that because, I don't have a philosophy. I have scripture that speaks, over and over again about the Sovereign choice of God. I am attaching a list of all the verses. Let God's word convince you.

You mean some people. You believe some people but not all people. Sounds like Satan gets the rest. What is the opposite of salvation, and why mention hell? We are just talking about some chosen people. If God created this world to just be given over to Satan and all those sinners, your God has not a single care for, then your God is limited, and has let Satan get the best of Him. See, it works both ways. Your God only demands 10% of Satan's world. Since most of history is just full of sinners, and religious hypocrisy the worse of the moral lot, then your God only predestined 10% at best, and most of that was in the first 100 years of Christ, so you and all those who accept your belief system, are not even God's predestined. You all just sound like those in the last days, crying have we not done all this in the Lord's name, and the reply is, depart from your God, your God never predestined you. You just happened to be the ones left, still preaching a dead belief system. Your God just uses people, and predestines them for any purpose that suits him. That seems to be what all those verses you allegedly think points out. I am still not sure why your God gets to choose, but you all slaves have no choice whatsover. That is the logic of reformed theology. There is no love and care for the world, because you all demand an interpretation that binds God into an impossibility.

All those verses prove the God is not limited by determinism. God has a choice and being in God's image the whole world is loved by God and can choose Salvation. The issue should be why waste a good salvation, when some just reject any way. Because God does love the whole world. It does not matter what we in selfishness think or believe. Stop coming up with idiotic human theology, that judges others, and just make the simple choice and admit no human can know all things. Stop judging others, and let the Holy Spirit work, not human doctrine. And yes, telling me what I think my God is, is a judgment call. Yes, I judged you as well. I have no problem being judged, and judging others if that is what they think needs to happen.

 

[Calminian]

The Catholic Church was never the church of God.
MB

Catholic means universal. The early church sometimes called the universal or catholic church, was the true church.

Do you actually deny the true church existed until the 1500s?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I Have a friend who believes that all men are saved (as in Adam, as in Christ).

I do not believe this, and have responded to his emails by saying the word "ALL" as used in the NT, can't possibly mean, every living individual... EX: And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

The same seems to apply to the word "World"...EX: "The whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?

So I'm seeking some clarity from you dear baptist brothers, what about the word "ALL" and "World"

Of course this would lead us to the extreme question of John 3:16 "The whole word"

Does the Greek clear any of this up. If any of you are able to read Greek in the N.T, I would love to hear from you.

The Greek here is 'pas'. It has many meanings. The same for the Greek word 'kosmos'

G2889 - kosmos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NKJV)

G3956 - pas - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NKJV)



I.individually

A. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

II.collectively

. some of all types



Since we are talking about people, it is plural and it means all types of people.

The world - kosmos

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
   
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
   
3. the world, the universe
   
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
   
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
   
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
   
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

It never means every single person who ever lived.

God speed

 

[AustinC]

You mean some people. You believe some people but not all people. Sounds like Satan gets the rest. What is the opposite of salvation, and why mention hell? We are just talking about some chosen people. If God created this world to just be given over to Satan and all those sinners, your God has not a single care for, then your God is limited, and has let Satan get the best of Him. See, it works both ways. Your God only demands 10% of Satan's world. Since most of history is just full of sinners, and religious hypocrisy the worse of the moral lot, then your God only predestined 10% at best, and most of that was in the first 100 years of Christ, so you and all those who accept your belief system, are not even God's predestined. You all just sound like those in the last days, crying have we not done all this in the Lord's name, and the reply is, depart from your God, your God never predestined you. You just happened to be the ones left, still preaching a dead belief system. Your God just uses people, and predestines them for any purpose that suits him. That seems to be what all those verses you allegedly think points out. I am still not sure why your God gets to choose, but you all slaves have no choice whatsover. That is the logic of reformed theology. There is no love and care for the world, because you all demand an interpretation that binds God into an impossibility.

All those verses prove the God is not limited by determinism. God has a choice and being in God's image the whole world is loved by God and can choose Salvation. The issue should be why waste a good salvation, when some just reject any way. Because God does love the whole world. It does not matter what we in selfishness think or believe. Stop coming up with idiotic human theology, that judges others, and just make the simple choice and admit no human can know all things. Stop judging others, and let the Holy Spirit work, not human doctrine. And yes, telling me what I think my God is, is a judgment call. Yes, I judged you as well. I have no problem being judged, and judging others if that is what they think needs to happen.

What obligation does God have? What does he owe to anyone?
If he does not owe anyone then how can you blame God if no one ever was redeemed out of the prison made from their own sin?
Would it not be an amazingly kind gesture if God chose to free one man?

Yet, you come to the conclusion that God is evil when he chooses and you don't get to choose. Frankly, it seems you have issues with God's authority over humanity.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

The implication that the word "world" in Jn 3:16 only means the elect is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of the Calvinist. Christ was speaking truth and some can't live with that so they try to make it say what it clearly doesn't Some are just to ignorant to understand what He meant. It doesn't fit there theology or what there priest have taught them.
MB

From Blue Letter Bible

The Greek word is 'pas'. Since it is plural it means

I.individually

A. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

II.collectively

. some of all types

The Greek word for world is kosmos.

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
   
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
   
3. the world, the universe
   
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
   
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
   
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
   
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
      
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
      

 

[timtofly]

What obligation does God have? What does he owe to anyone?
If he does not owe anyone then how can you blame God if no one ever was redeemed out of the prison made from their own sin?
Would it not be an amazingly kind gesture if God chose to free one man?

Yet, you come to the conclusion that God is evil when he chooses and you don't get to choose. Frankly, it seems you have issues with God's authority over humanity.

I have no issue with God. I have issue with your reformed belief system. It is you who claimed God was weak. Is that not your issue with God?

 

[MB]

Catholic means universal. The early church sometimes called the universal or catholic church, was the true church.

Do you actually deny the true church existed until the 1500s?

The Catholic church has never been true never will be either This is why Calvinism isn't true. The central point of worship is Mary the mother of Jesus. Mary doesn't hear there prayers nor can she because she isn't a god. When Catholic's pray it's usually to Mary or some other saint. The rosary is all about Mary.
MB

 

[MB]

From Blue Letter Bible

The Greek word is 'pas'. Since it is plural it means

I.individually

A. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

II.collectively

. some of all types

The Greek word for world is kosmos.

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Here you are trying to convince me that "world" doesn't mean what it clearly means. Your knowledge of the Biblical Greek does not impress me. Nor does your Grasp of English.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Here you are trying to convince me that "world" doesn't mean what it clearly means. Your knowledge of the Biblical Greek does not impress me. Nor does your Grasp of English.
MB

The world of the Gentiles, in addition to, the Jews.

 

[Alan Gross]

""Alan Gross
For your mind to be thinking that you are 'thinking with the Mind of Christ' explains why there are no Bible passages stated.

Only, Reasoning with a mind cursed by sin can produce these things you're thinking.

You just call that 'The Mind of Christ' and Jesus Saying, "you WILL NOT Come unto Me" is just from a misguided sheep(?)

"You have not chosen Me".

"The foolish shall not stand in Thy Sight:
Thou Hatest all workers of iniquity".


Ms E (for 'etiquette'?) says, "If you're insinuating my lack of salvation, then you need to step back and look at yourself in the mirror.

You make utterly NO sense.

Can anyone else interpret what this man @Alan Gross is saying here? Nothing what he says adds up."

...

I couldn't find where to respond to this short-sighted, false accusation, and threat to have me punished by the Board Administration.

Any human being can reason with their sin-cursed, fleshly, carnal, mind.

Any saved or lost human being can reason with their sin-cursed, fleshly, carnal, mind.

...

Adam sinned leaving all human beings dead in trespasses and sins.

The Nature of all children naturally born of Adam is Depraved, Totally.

Dead.

Dead to God.

Impotent and null and void of any and all Divine Spiritual capacity.

 

[Yeshua1]

Prove it with something other than your imagination.
MB

Romans 3:11
Romans 6:20
John 8:36

 

[Alan Gross]

The world of the Gentiles, in addition to, the Jews.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world
The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature;

for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to everyone;

for to whomsoever, he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man.

Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature;

for though God has shown regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other;

and Christ has assumed the nature of men and not angels;

yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham;

and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed;

for though these are called the world, ( John 6:33 John 6:51 ) ;

and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with everlasting salvation;

yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant;

who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see ( Romans 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Romans 11:15 [URL='https://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/strongs/?t=kjv&ll=g&sn=1063']For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?[/URL] )

( 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. )

( Luke 12:30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. ),

compared with ( Matthew 6:32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. ) .

The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world;

the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world;

on those words,

``"let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified,

( Isaiah 43:9 All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of their gods foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, “It is true.” ) (say F2 the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''


And again F3,


``the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''


and so in a multitude of places:

and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.


FOOTNOTES:

F2 T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1.
F3 Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3.

 

[AustinC]

I have no issue with God. I have issue with your reformed belief system. It is you who claimed God was weak. Is that not your issue with God?

My issue is with you, who makes God subservient to your will.

 

[timtofly]

My issue is with you, who makes God subservient to your will.

Which you have not even proved.

However all this doctrine creates a false God. So your defense is coming up with your own God? There is no proof, I am making God subservient to my will, yet you manipulate God into a form that is not even in the Bible?


The form of God you create is the god of fate and determinism. Not by your will, but by your false interpretation of God's Word and any one teaching what you believe. You have no will, because your doctrine denies that fact.

My point was God is not willing, thus the Atonement. All humans have the ability to choose God's will. How is that changing or making God’s will subservient? That is humanity conforming to God’s will and leaving sinful flesh behind. God's will is that all be transformed into the image of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Remaining in sin is just doing nothing at all. Accepting God's will, IS letting God do all the work. No manipulation on either side. God is willing to do all the conforming. We are willing to be conformed, because we have free will to change our mind.

 

[MB]

Romans 3:11
Romans 6:20
John 8:36

These verses do not prove the meaning of the word "world' Your imagination gets in the way of the truth.
MB

 

[rodneyo777]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

So many wonderful comments, and yet as smart as all of you are (much smarter than myself), still we have no definite answer. Some seem to believe in free will being the controlling factor , and others believe it is God.

And I certainly do not have an answer, but in my limited ability I see things that make me lean one way, more than another. Allow me to list just a couple.

Jesus says "No one can come UNLESS the father draws them"... Then there is the fact that God Prophesied to David, and then God had to bring about the circumstances to fulfill His own words. It goes like this (Paraphrase).

David said "God I want to build you a house" (Temple)... Then God Speaks prophetically (future) and says to David "No, but you will have a son, that will build me a house"...

NOW WATCH GOD FULFILL HIS OWN WORD, His prophetic, word...

One day David is on his rooftop, and he sees a woman, he asks his servant, who is this woman, his servant says that is Bathsheba, your servants wife. David says Get her for me...

David has sexual relations with this woman, and out of this sinful action, comes the fulfillment of God's prophetic word to David, for from these two people comes Solomon, who builds God's Temple....

No human could have arranged this event, David being on his roof, and her bathing.

The same applies to Moses. Moses was taken out of Egypt, because he killed a man, what if this man, that Moses killed, had decided to go another way, or have another cup of tea, no these arrangements are by God's own hands.

 

[Alan Gross]

The whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, are here designed in The Book of John, only in John 6:33 & John 6:51;

...when The whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles are called the world, in John 6:33 "For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” = The whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, are here designed, by 'the world'.

& John 6:51; I am the Living Bread which Came down from Heaven; if any man eat of this Bread he will Live Foreverand the Bread that I Give is My flesh, which I will Give for the Life of the world = The whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, are here designed, by 'the world'.

The whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with everlasting salvation;

...

However, John 3:16 rather refers to the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant;

...the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them are often called "the world",
and "the whole world",
and "the nations of the world",
as distinct from the Jews; see;

Romans 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

= the Gentiles particularly,
and God's elect among them, are meant;


Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

= the Gentiles particularly,
and God's elect among them, are meant;


1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

= the Gentiles particularly,
and God's elect among them, are meant;


Luke 12:30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.,

= the Gentiles particularly,
and God's elect among them, are meant;


compared with;

Matthew 6:32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.

Adapted from John Gill 3:16.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Here you are trying to convince me that "world" doesn't mean what it clearly means. Your knowledge of the Biblical Greek does not impress me. Nor does your Grasp of English.
MB

What I'm seeing here is that you might perhaps think it is acceptable to avoid facts, preferring instead to verbally assault others who do not agree with you.

I don't read Greek but my Pastor teaches it. What I posted comes from the BLB is accurate.

The Bible is my standard for Christian speech.

When you start with personal attacks, it demonstrates you have lost the argument.

Colossians 3:17 English Standard Version (ESV)

17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Ephesians 4 New King James Version (NKJV)

4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

Remember, unbelievers are lurking.