Does God allow Divorce Today?

[atpollard]

Marriage between infidels is still marriage in God's sight. And divorce is still unfounded and unforgiveness. And remarriage is still adultery to be repented of. This is true of any before or after they become a Christian.

On what grounds do you make this claim?
The quote from Jesus that you have built ALL of this on was made to Jews concerning the Law of Moses and the provision for a Jewish Divorce by Moses. Nowhere does Jesus hint that this is universal.

Paul gives instructions for believers married to unbelievers presented to a mixed Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christian audience that permits dissolution of the union ... "not under bondage" (which you have yet to address beyond denial by fiat).

 

[Yeshua1]

who decides the length of sinning, or the degree of sinning, or type of sinning that makes one not to be seen as really saved then?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, how can you assume you are genuinely saved if your lifestyle doesn't square with your profession?

Because the scriptures tell me that I can know that I am saved, by believing in the Son of God, who died in my place, and was raised again to justify me to God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not in cases of wilful disobedience.

Isn't all sin though :"willful disobedience" to God?

 

[Yeshua1]

On what grounds do you make this claim?
The quote from Jesus that you have built ALL of this on was made to Jews concerning the Law of Moses and the provision for a Jewish Divorce by Moses. Nowhere does Jesus hint that this is universal.

Paul gives instructions for believers married to unbelievers presented to a mixed Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christian audience that permits dissolution of the union ... "not under bondage" (which you have yet to address beyond denial by fiat).

Either paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write that to us, or he was just making it up!

 

[1689Dave]

Isn't all sin though :"willful disobedience" to God?

Any impure thought is willful disobedience unless censored. If we censor impure thoughts and resist them, they are temptations only.

 

[1689Dave]

Because the scriptures tell me that I can know that I am saved, by believing in the Son of God, who died in my place, and was raised again to justify me to God!

But if we truly believe in Christ, we will live a holy lifestyle. Apart from which, nobody will see the Lord.

 

[1689Dave]

On what grounds do you make this claim?
The quote from Jesus that you have built ALL of this on was made to Jews concerning the Law of Moses and the provision for a Jewish Divorce by Moses. Nowhere does Jesus hint that this is universal.

Paul gives instructions for believers married to unbelievers presented to a mixed Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christian audience that permits dissolution of the union ... "not under bondage" (which you have yet to address beyond denial by fiat).

Paul did not challenge the marriages of his pagan converts. He respected them as legal and binding.

 

[atpollard]

Paul did not challenge the marriages of his pagan converts. He respected them as legal and binding.

JESUS TO THE JEWS:
Mark 10:2-12 NASB

2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He *said to them, “Whoever [fn]divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”​

[Jesus treats the marriage of two 'Jews' as legal and binding because only a marriage within the covenent of God (old or new) is a real marriage covenent with God and your spouse.]


PAUL TO THE GENTILES:
1 Corinthians 7:10-16 NASB

10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.​

[Paul treats the marriage of two Christian converts (two former pagans) as legal and binding ... because only a marriage within the covenent of God (old or new) is a real marriage covenent with God and your spouse.]

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?​

[Paul treats the 'marriage' between a believer and an unbeliever as an oportunity for evangelism. If the unbeliever walks away, then let them go. The "brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases". It sort of reminds me of this: Mark 6:11 NASB "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." ]

 

[1689Dave]

JESUS TO THE JEWS:
Mark 10:2-12 NASB

2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He *said to them, “Whoever [fn]divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”​

[Jesus treats the marriage of two 'Jews' as legal and binding because only a marriage within the covenent of God (old or new) is a real marriage covenent with God and your spouse.]


PAUL TO THE GENTILES:
1 Corinthians 7:10-16 NASB

10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.​

[Paul treats the marriage of two Christian converts (two former pagans) as legal and binding ... because only a marriage within the covenent of God (old or new) is a real marriage covenent with God and your spouse.]

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?​

[Paul treats the 'marriage' between a believer and an unbeliever as an oportunity for evangelism. If the unbeliever walks away, then let them go. The "brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases". It sort of reminds me of this: Mark 6:11 NASB "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." ]

All marriage, pagan or Jewish is legally binding until the death of a spouse.

But Christ abolished the Old Covenant, including Moses' allowance of divorce, making divorce a purely human law and fiction. Just like abortion, though legal is not justifiable in God's sight. People are still married and their divorce is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[atpollard]

All marriage, pagan or Jewish is legally binding until the death of a spouse.

But Christ abolished the Old Covenant, including Moses' allowance of divorce, making divorce a purely human law and fiction. Just like abortion, though legal is not justifiable in God's sight. People are still married and their divorce is not worth the paper it is written on.

Your rebuttal seems a little heavy on opinion and light on either Scripture or exegesis of that Scripture.

How about this verse:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"is not judged" would include the sin of divorce, would it not?

 

[1689Dave]

Your rebuttal seems a little heavy on opinion and light on either Scripture or exegesis of that Scripture.

How about this verse:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"is not judged" would include the sin of divorce, would it not?

Show from scripture any sin that God does not require repentance from.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 2:30 PM Pacific.

 

[atpollard]

Show from scripture any sin that God does not require repentance from.

[strawman alert] ... I never suggested that.
So let the person repent, be forgiven and move on ... not get divorced again as a pre-condition to forgiveness.

(... and still no scripture or exegesis in response to any legitimate counterpoint raised against your position. I am tired of a one-sided debate where you fling out a quick opinion and I attempt to challenge it with scripture and exposition from that scripture, only to have you fling out another unsupportded opinion.)

Scripture does not support your works-based justification.
You have failed to show otherwise.
Goodbye.

 

[1689Dave]

[strawman alert] ... I never suggested that.
So let the person repent, be forgiven and move on ... not get divorced again as a pre-condition to forgiveness.

(... and still no scripture or exegesis in response to any legitimate counterpoint raised against your position. I am tired of a one-sided debate where you fling out a quick opinion and I attempt to challenge it with scripture and exposition from that scripture, only to have you fling out another unsupportded opinion.)

Scripture does not support your works-based justification.
You have failed to show otherwise.
Goodbye.

If God forgives sin unrepented of, Christ died in vain.

 

[InTheLight]

Show from scripture any sin that God does not require repentance from.

You are asking to prove a negative. Ridiculous.

I have listed 1 John 1:9 a couple of times. This is directly relevant to forgiveness of sins not related to salvation, and it says nothing about repentance.

You have managed to post one verse (Acts 3:19) that contains repentance and forgiveness of sins from a Bible version that omits the key phrase attached to repentance, "and be converted".

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[1689Dave]

You are asking to prove a negative. Ridiculous.

I have listed 1 John 1:9 a couple of times. This is directly relevant to forgiveness of sins not related to salvation, and it says nothing about repentance.

You have managed to post one verse (Acts 3:19) that contains repentance and forgiveness of sins from a Bible version that omits the key phrase attached to repentance, "and be converted".

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

Asking for evidence is not ridiculous. Your not providing it proves you are wrong. I can and have shown many times over, forgiveness depends on repentance.

 

[atpollard]

If God forgives sin unrepented of, Christ died in vain.

Prove it.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove it.

I'm not the one making the claim, you must prove your claim from scripture that God forgives apart from repentance.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [remain unrepentant]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9) (KJV 1900)

 

[atpollard]

This is forgiveness from Sin for a believer:

1 John 1:5-2:14 NASB

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.​

... to CONFESS our sins and know that JESUS is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.