SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
if what I believe on some points of theology, might sound like Calvinism, and on others like Arminianism, then so be it. I try not to follow too much of what "theologians" teach
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Does God Have Libertarian Free Will?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
if what I believe on some points of theology, might sound like Calvinism, and on others like Arminianism, then so be it. I try not to follow too much of what "theologians" teach
Does God have to decide from eternity past all He's going to do in whatever future occurs? I think that's what you are asking. Because most around here think God knows the future exhaustively, which would have to include His own future works. In that case, He at one time might have had libertarian free will, but He must have, if He knows the future exhaustively, bound it.
That's logically ok, I guess, but hard to square with an infinitely creative and capable understanding of God.
It's not theologically ok, however, because it puts God in a box that He doesn't say He has put Himself in. I.e., it's not biblical.
I will make a point that needs to be made to keep from continuing to add extra words to the phrase.
"Libertarian" means "free", which makes the phrase mean "Free free will".
"Will", in this context, means "the thing that one desires or ordains". The "one" in that definition specifies where the desire comes from, which means that it isn't coming from someone else if it's a "will", which is another way to say "freedom".
That means the phrase "libertarian free will" really means "free free freedom". Which sounds ridiculous.
Added: Maybe "free, free freedom of desires"
But that's not how God presents Himself in His Word. Which suggests, if you didn't catch it, that your theology is man-based, and not as revealed by God.
Here's an example:
[Jon 3:2, 4, 10 KJV] 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. ...
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. ...
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
Here's another one:
[1Sa 13:13-14 KJV] 13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue...
Here's another one (two, actually) that are hypothetical, coming from God's own mouth, saying it could happen at any time:
[Jer 18:7-10 KJV] 7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Wow, you put better words to my logical problem than I could. The problem is, does the LORD have freedom as the greatest creative Being? Our whole understanding of God's omniscience fails, because we put God in a box and by doing so malign His transcendence. His ways and thoughts are far beyond ours as the heavens are to the earth, but we anthropomophize God by claiming to know how His mind works in relation to His judgments about the future.
How dare we assume such when Paul ends Romans 9-11 with a doxology that extols the unimaginable ways and decisions of God. Whom we cannot counsel in any way.
I think you are falsely dichotomizing.
Why is it that when we read God's Word in an attempt to understand what God has told us about Himself, that such is suddenly counseling God?
If God welcomes us searching Him out, even if we don't or can't do it very well, and provides His own descriptions of Himself, why can't we use those descriptions He provides to describe God in our conversations????
I'm trying to counsel you (whether well or poorly, I'll let you decide), and unless you are God, your "How dare you" is misplaced.
I didn't address this, but it is an excellent statement, and deserves addressing.
If our whole understanding of God's omniscience fails, isn't that the same problem you brought up about Paul's doxology (included below in praise to Him), but aimed at the traditional understanding?
[Rom 11:33-36 KJV] 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
And if our understanding of His omniscience fails, which it should imho, maybe our understanding of His transcendence is also faulty. Neither of these things, i.e. misunderstanding God, actually changes God--His omniscience nor His transcendence. It is our job to search out God and get to know Him. We can't do that accurately until we first listen to what He says about Himself, rather than maintaining our presuppositions, "our whole understandings" in your words.
It is true that God has revealed things about Himself in scripture, and we are to reflect on these things. I stand corrected on that point. We know a number of God's attributes through His revelation of Himself.
That said, that makes me all the more conscious of the fact God has not revealed much on how He understands the future in the bible. I must not be generic but specific about my "how dare we" as it were. We do not know how the LORD's omniscience works.
Derf, thank you very much for your counsel and rebuke.
I will have to agree with you. Our current presuppositions are in error, and larger reassessment of things is in order. However, I now have a strong feeling of peace over the Calvinism vs Arminianism issue. Thank you. I can now assert with confidence from the bible,
1. God knows the future thousands and thousands of years in advance
2. God wants all men saved
3. God has elected some men to eternal life, but not all those who will become Believers
4. We do not know how the LORD's omniscience works
5. God's omniscience allows Him to be the most free and most creative Being, omniscience in no way reduces His transcendence
I will start a new thread to logically explain these points.
That's a very gracious reply, Steven, and a good example for all of us!
I agree that we do not know how God's omniscience works, but we do have evidence about what it includes. I gave three examples to @AustinC. But this is my favorite:
[2Ki 20:1, 4-6 KJV] 1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. ... 4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. 6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
God tells Hezekiah two mutually exclusive things:
1. That he would die of his sickness
2. That he would NOT die of his sickness.
If the future was already settled, and God of course would know what it was, then God lied to Hezekiah the first time.
But we know God does not lie. Therefore He must have been telling the truth the first time AND the second time. When Isaiah said Hezekiah was going to die of the sickness, that was the current plan. Then God changed the plan and Hezekiah would survive the sickness.
This isn't just MY interpretation, this is what God said with the words "I will add unto thy days fifteen years". I underlined the word "add" here, because it tells us that those years were not at first assigned to Hezekiah, but now they were. That means the future changed at God's command, as He has revealed to us in this (and other) passages.
Both of Isaiah's statements (which were both "thus says the Lord" statements), were statements about the future, and both were true (not "are" but "were") in their time. If God can change the future in real time, as shown here, then the future is NOT settled, and God's knowledge of the future cannot be based on the idea that it is settled, even up to the time of Hezekiah (meaning, God did not decide before the foundation of the world when Hezekiah would die).
I look forward to reading your new thread.
I wanted to point back to my commentary on Hezekiah's sickness about your #1 "God knows the future thousands and thousands of years in advance"
[2Ki 20:1, 4-6 KJV] 1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. ... 4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. 6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
If this account can be trusted, and it is repeated in the book of Isaiah (that means 2 witnesses!), Then God did not know the actual future of Hezekiah any more than the time it took Isaiah to make it from Hezekiah's presence (probably his bedroom) to the middle court. I don't know how long it took Isaiah to walk that far, but I would guess not more than 10 or 15 minutes.
Remember that this does not mean God doesn't know anything of the future. It means that 1. the future is not settled, and 2. God can change His mind (as long as it doesn't reflect on His righteousness, holiness, or integrity).
#1 obliterates the Arminian's position on the future (that God looks down the corridors of time to figure out what will happen).
#2 obliterates the Calvinist's position that God ordained ALL things from eternity past.
But God did ordain some things from the foundation of the world or before. These things are the ones that no one can change His mind on. These things are things like 1. He would provide a way of escape for mankind from sin and death, and 2. It would involve His only begotten Son..
I believe you may enjoy the logical concept of middle knowledge,
Molinism - Wikipedia
It gives a foretaste of how complex the working of God's omniscience may be.
It seems you may struggle with poetic language.
It might. Or it might not. Just as settled future folks think they have it figured out (and tell others they don't), so Molinists might think they have it figured out and others don't.
In reading the article, it says "The Bible contains many examples of foreknowledge such as Deut 31:16–17 ", which verse must be one of the better ones to bolster its case, but it doesn't. Just read on in Deut 31:
[Deu 31:21 KJV] 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
God gives a reason for His dire pronouncement--that the people He currently knew were apt to go awhoring after other gods, and they would teach their children to think likewise. The word "imaginations" above is alternately translated "inclination", "intention", or "disposition" in various forms in the different versions. This gives reason to God's knowledge, and it's not necessarily something mystical and beyond our understanding. God knew their hearts--the ones that were alive at the time--and could know the direction of their offspring (including some that were much younger than Joshua, who was probably upwards of 80 years old at the time.Moses died. That means there were 4 generations of fighting-age Israelites represented. Then Joshua and his generation died, and:
[Jdg 2:10-11 KJV] 10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. 11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
That means that the Lord already KNEW the ones that ended up going after other gods when He made that statement to Moses, at least the earliest ones. He knew their intentions and that they were already, it seems, considering going after other gods. So it isn't some "middle knowledge" that God needed there, just "current knowledge" and an understanding of human nature.
In reading the article, it says "The Bible contains many examples of foreknowledge such as Deut 31:16–17 ", which verse must be one of the better ones to bolster its case, but it doesn't. Just read on in Deut 31:
[Deu 31:21 KJV] 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
God gives a reason for His dire pronouncement--that the people He currently knew were apt to go awhoring after other gods, and they would teach their children to think likewise. The word "imaginations" above is alternately translated "inclination", "intention", or "disposition" in various forms in the different versions. This gives reason to God's knowledge, and it's not necessarily something mystical and beyond our understanding. God knew their hearts--the ones that were alive at the time--and could know the direction of their offspring (including some that were much younger than Joshua, who was probably upwards of 80 years old at the time.Moses died. That means there were 4 generations of fighting-age Israelites represented. Then Joshua and his generation died, and:
[Jdg 2:10-11 KJV] 10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. 11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
That means that the Lord already KNEW the ones that ended up going after other gods when He made that statement to Moses, at least the earliest ones. He knew their intentions and that they were already, it seems, considering going after other gods. So it isn't some "middle knowledge" that God needed there, just "current knowledge" and an understanding of human nature.
I supposed so, since Samuel always spoke to Saul in poetic language.
Maybe you're the one struggling...with the English language.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
God's character does not change, God can still do whatever God wants to do. For all have sinned, all are worthy of destruction in hellfire.
God shows mercy and compassion to whom he wills to show mercy and compassion, apart from anything we do or say.
God can do absolutely anything he wants as long as its permissible by Calvinism.
He does not contain the sovereignty power to run existence in a non-Calvinist way.
He is submisive to Calvinism.
Yet Jesus waited until the thief said “Remember me.” Seems like either He was responding to the thief’s words, or the thief’s words meant nothing.
What if God wills to show mercy and compassion to those who ask Him for mercy and compassion?
Can a person of whom the Bible says, no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”, ask for mercy and compassion without God first breathing life into their Spirit?
Should we just ignore Ephesians 2:1-9?
Not ignore, but not make it the passage to interpret all other passages by, either.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The fact you ask Him for mercy and compassion means God has already shown you mercy and compassion to turn your heart towards Himself.
Note that faith comes by hearing, and that ability to hear by the word (rhema active) word of God.
Without which you will not believe our report, those who witness for God by preaching to them. Isaiah is so bold so here we have an honest truth, God said He was found by those who did not seek or ask for ME. Contrast that to unbelieving Israel who were commanded to do the sacrifices and failed miserably in their works. God is showing us an unenlightened man is not going to respond to God and be saved, they will be rebellious and not repent of their unbelief.
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”