Does God love everyone?

[Marcia]

I think you've misunderstood me. I don't believe in regeneration before salvation. I was asking Tom a question based on his statement about free will. If our will is free, then we have ability to reject God's offer of salvation, but Cals believe in irresistable grace, so that's where my question was coming from.
:wavey:

Oh, okay, I see. :thumbs:

 

[HankD]

You seem to doubting the fact of God's omniscience.The Lord did not ask those questions because He didn't know the answers.




Does He love those He has hated from eternity past?




You don't believe the Lord can be angry with those He loves?



No He doesn't.



Those He loves in John 3:16 He also hates?! You are speaking in a heterodox fashion.




AMEN.And AMEN again.

Dear brother Rippon,

Please go back and read my original post.

In it I affirm that God is Omni-everything (Omnipotent, Omipresent, Omniscient, etc...).

I also used the term "enigma" as to how God seems often to behave as coming down to our level as those who do not have these qualities and behaving in like manner.

Here are a couple more:

Genesis 6

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Can created mortal beings hurt our Ominipotent God?

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.​

Why does our omnipresent/omniscient God need to "seek" anything as if He didn't know who they were or where they are as the passage seems to indicate?

This is a debate forum, my questions are not motivated by doubt but by the gifts of curiosity and intellect that our Father has given to each of us along with a deep desire to know Him better.

However, I honestly appreciate your concern for my spiritual health.

Please (if you wish) give me scriptural (or even your own thoughts) as to the reconciliation of His omnipotence/omniscience, etc. with enigmatic passages such as these.

I guess my only real disagreement with you is that God's love for everyone can turn to hate (or even wrath) here and now in the passage of time and indeed is happening while we speak as men reject His Son.

I don't how to reconcile that with His eternal nature but nevertheless that is my belief.


Thanks
HankD​

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, Amy directed the question to me because she knows that's where I put regeneration. It's not that she puts it there, she tried to set a trap for me. See Post #191 to see how cleverly and deftly I escaped--and humbly, of course.

I see that now, thanks.

But I also see yet another thread getting hijacked into the Cal-Non/Cal debate.

 

[Tom Butler]

But I also see yet another thread getting hijacked into the Cal-Non/Cal debate.

It always seems to happen, doesn't it. I'm as guilty as anybody else. But I have this irresistible urge, you see......

 

[Tom Butler]

Actually, when it gets spun off to irresistible grace, it is still related to the question, does God love everybody.

It does raise the question, does God extend his grace to everyone or to those on whom he as set his love? If God loves everybody, is it the same kind of love for all? If he extends grace to all those he loves, is it the same kind of grace?

Further question, in what form is that love extended? Is it by sending a missionary to them so they may hear the gospel? Is it sending the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, open eyes and hearts (as he did Lydia)? Is it carrying out the promise from Ezekiel to give a new heart? To enable them to understand spiritual things?

So maybe we haven't strayed too far from the OP after all.

 

[Jim1999]

As I was driving home a few minutes ago, I thought about that question, Does God love everyone? I tried to put it into human terms and how I would illustrate it in a sermon.

Immediately I thought about the fact I love my wife and family. I also love my neighbour. I buy gifts and many other personal things for my family. I also love them no matter what they may do. It is an unconditional love. Whilst I love my neighbour and sometimes buy gifts and groceries for them and even visit when they are ill or beset by other problems. I do not, however, go to the same extent as I do for my family. They are different. The neighbours are different. Still, I love them. Hence I love the whole world, even though I take that extra step for my family. This does not diminish my love for my neighbour.

So, God loves all and Jesus died for all, but instead of some. Once we become a member of Christ's family, there is a special love that He brings upon the family. He passes by the neighbour. His love for the neighbour remains so, but He has this special redeeming love for His own.

No human analogy is perfect, but it seemed to help me understand te saving grace of God for the elect, and the fact that He loves the whole world.

Cheers,

Jim

PS. Notice I didn't mention calvinism once?

 

[Marcia]

As I was driving home a few minutes ago, I thought about that question, Does God love everyone? I tried to put it into human terms and how I would illustrate it in a sermon.

Immediately I thought about the fact I love my wife and family. I also love my neighbour. I buy gifts and many other personal things for my family. I also love them no matter what they may do. It is an unconditional love. Whilst I love my neighbour and sometimes buy gifts and groceries for them and even visit when they are ill or beset by other problems. I do not, however, go to the same extent as I do for my family. They are different. The neighbours are different. Still, I love them. Hence I love the whole world, even though I take that extra step for my family. This does not diminish my love for my neighbour.

So, God loves all and Jesus died for all, but instead of some. Once we become a member of Christ's family, there is a special love that He brings upon the family. He passes by the neighbour. His love for the neighbour remains so, but He has this special redeeming love for His own.

No human analogy is perfect, but it seemed to help me understand te saving grace of God for the elect, and the fact that He loves the whole world.

I pretty much like your answer.

PS. Notice I didn't mention calvinism once?

:applause:

 

[webdog]

I like Jim's answer, too :thumbs:

 

[HankD]

Actually, when it gets spun off to irresistible grace, it is still related to the question, does God love everybody.

It does raise the question, does God extend his grace to everyone or to those on whom he as set his love? If God loves everybody, is it the same kind of love for all? If he extends grace to all those he loves, is it the same kind of grace?

Further question, in what form is that love extended? Is it by sending a missionary to them so they may hear the gospel? Is it sending the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, open eyes and hearts (as he did Lydia)? Is it carrying out the promise from Ezekiel to give a new heart? To enable them to understand spiritual things?

So maybe we haven't strayed too far from the OP after all.

Here is another passage as well as John 3:16 that certainly seems all inclusive:

NKJ Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent


HankD​

 

[MB]

It always seems to happen, doesn't it. I'm as guilty as anybody else. But I have this irresistible urge, you see......

There is nothing that is irresistible not even God's Grace. It is by God's grace that we can know the truth and still resist it. He said this about His own people.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Calvinist' claim of irresistible grace is totally unscriptural. Rom.8:29 does not say we cannot resist. It doesn't even mention resistance. Where you get it from is that you believe everyone is predestined from before the foundation of the world when it was Christ Himself that was predestined and foreknown. Men are only predestined "in Christ" we are predestined unto eternal life when we believe in and trust in Jesus Christ.


The perception that Rom.8:29 is about the irresistibility of God's grace is man's doctrine not the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Other wise there would be no such thing as a whosoever in Jn 3:16. There would no such thing as all men being drawn Jn 12:32 and Christ would not be the propitation of the sins of the whole world.1st Jn 2:2.
Inorder to have irresistible grace we'd have to throw out most of scripture as is the case for the whole tulip.
MB

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
It is not a distortion to logically conclude free will (influence and response) and Determinism (cause and effect) are mutually exclusive.

The Determinist stands on the rock of TULIP; they hold that “I” (irresistible grace) and “U” (unconditional election) are part of this foundation, both of which clearly contravene man’s volition on the subject of creaturely faith being free. Unmistakably, “irresistible” and “unconditional” are determinate actions which describe overruling the action of free will (“man’s want”).

According to the Determinist doctrine for God to be sovereign He must have predestined (determined) everything.

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

If the action of “man’s want” is fore-determined for him, something that cannot be resisted and under no conditions can he choose otherwise, then “man’s want” (free will/volition) in the matter is logically nonexistent.

No distortion has been made unless you can disprove the truth factors, of: irresistible does not = resistible, or God fore-determining a creature’s response does not = the creature freely responding.

Response by Tom Butler:
Benjamin, regarding your post #188, I'm not inclined to try to answer you point-by-point regarding determinism and free will.

Here is what I believe the Bible teaches:

God has foreordained all that will come to pass, and the means by which he will accomplish his will--including the choices of human beings.

This is illustrated in Peter's Pentecost Day sermon, Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Here, in the same verse is God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. There was never any possibility that Jesus would not die on the cross as the result of actions of wicked men. God determined that it would be so. He determined the means, as well.

I'm not smart enough to understand how God can be sovereign and man still responsible. Paul anticipated that question "who can resist his will" in Romans 9 with his answer: "Who do you think you are?"

Tom Butler,

I already know how you would interpret these passages as it is obvious you stand on the rock of Determinism. But, I asked you to address the truth of your interpretation. Something can not be untrue and also true. Once again you have turned to smokescreen the argument buy placing the burden of proof over to me to exegesis passages and tried to form a circular argument, rather than address the truth of your statement, which is a “fallacy of reasoning”.

You say: “Here is what I believe the Bible teaches”:

“God has foreordained all that will come to pass, and the means by which he will accomplish his will--including the choices of human beings.”


You are simply noting and restating the obvious that you believe God determines the choices of man. In essence, I asked you to address this one point which focuses on your “double talk” over this issue, and gets to the heart/roots of the matter (resistibility) concerning responsibility on the subject of free creaturely response being a truth or not. If not, your determinist view/interpretations of the scriptures clearly leads you to fatalism. Why? It places the responsibility of all things on God, including the sin of man. Either it is true that God loves all His creatures, draws them, is not willing that any should perish, and judges them righteously according to “their” responsibility toward responding or not, or your system of belief denies the true, sinless and just nature of God:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

In your bolded statement above it appears “your rock” of TULIP has reached fatalism.

 

[Rippon]

Here is another passage as well as John 3:16 that certainly seems all inclusive:

NKJ Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent​

HankD​

Why do you consider it all inclusive?"But now the Lord commands all people everywhere to repent."

All-inclusive would mean it applies to each and every person in the past,present and future.That verse --that command,did not apply to the time before the now.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Cited Is From The HCSB

There is nothing that is irresistible not even God's Grace.

You speak as an uninformed one.God's particular grace is effectual.The ones He has chosen from before the foundation of the world the Father gives to the Son who draws them to Himself.None of His are lost.God's will is never countermanded.

It is by God's grace that we can know the truth and still resist it.

No.That's not God's grace.God's grace is particular.He doesn't give His grace to all.And it's silly in the extreme to claim that the Lord gives grace to those who end up in Hell.

The Calvinist' claim of irresistible grace is totally unscriptural. Rom.8:29 does not say we cannot resist. It doesn't even mention resistance. Where you get it from is that you believe everyone is predestined ...

You keep calling it Irresistible Grace when Effectual calling is more precise.

Romans 8:29,30 says ;"For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn of many brothers.And those He predestined,He also called;and those He called,He also justified;and those He justified,He also glorified."

That's the unbreakable Golden Chain.No resistance can be found among that group.

And it is clear that everyone is not predestined in the sense of elected -called-justified-glorified.

The perception that Rom.8:29 is about the irresistibility of God's grace is man's doctrine not the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

See my remarks above which refute your ill-founded notions.

Inorder to have irresistible grace we'd have to throw out most of scripture as is the case for the whole tulip.
MB

No. Scripture must be believed.By believing these biblical doctrines you would have to abandon your errors.

 

[HankD]

Why do you consider it all inclusive?"But now the Lord commands all people everywhere to repent."

All-inclusive would mean it applies to each and every person in the past,present and future.That verse --that command,did not apply to the time before the now.

Good point Rippon.

That leads to the question of why "now" and not in the past. The Scripture says because of a certain kind of ignorance.

Anyway it does say "all men everywhere".

A better answer would be (and it is a kind of a stretch for some).

"Now" means to the Gentiles as well as the Jewish people.

I guess I was "phishing" for that answer.

HankD

 

[MB]

You speak as an uninformed one.God's particular grace is effectual.The ones He has chosen from before the foundation of the world the Father gives to the Son who draws them to Himself.None of His are lost.God's will is never countermanded.

If that's true about God's will. Then everyone will be saved. God;s words says this is God's will;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

No.That's not God's grace.God's grace is particular.He doesn't give His grace to all.And it's silly in the extreme to claim that the Lord gives grace to those who end up in Hell.

You haven't proved Particular election. It's only your stubborness to think you have.

You keep calling it Irresistible Grace when Effectual calling is more precise.

The calling of God is only effective if the man does not rebel.

Romans 8:29,30 says ;"For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn of many brothers.And those He predestined,He also called;and those He called,He also justified;and those He justified,He also glorified."

Are you Jewish Rippon because I fail to see how he foreknew Gentiles. You see Gentiles are the people who are not His people.
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
After all if you have been foreknown of God then you must be a Jew.

That's the unbreakable Golden Chain.No resistance can be found among that group.
And it is clear that everyone is not predestined in the sense of elected -called-justified-glorified.
See my remarks above which refute your ill-founded notions.
No. Scripture must be believed.By believing these biblical doctrines you would have to abandon your errors.

I do believe scripture the problem is I don't believe the distortions you have been drawn into. The whole of your distorted view is dishonest and deceiving. I'm not ever going to fall for that nonsense. It isn't believable because you still haven't backed up a single thing you've falsely claimed.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Are you Jewish Rippon because I fail to see how he foreknew Gentiles. You see Gentiles are the people who are not His people.
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
After all if you have been foreknown of God then you must be a Jew.

This is pure desperation brother. I challenge you to find one commentary in the world that agrees with your interpretation of Rom 9:25-26.

Here is the commentary of Adam Clark, a Methodist and a virulant Anti-Calvinist:

I will have mercy on her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people. The apostle shows that this calling of the Gentiles was no fortuitous thing, but a firm purpose in the Divinemind, which he had largely revealed to the prophets; and by opposing the calling of the Gentiles, the Jews in effect renounced their prophets, and fought against God.

 

[MB]

This is pure desperation brother. I challenge you to find one commentary in the world that agrees with your interpretation of Rom 9:25-26.

The Best commentary ever made the Bible

Here is the commentary of Adam Clark, a Methodist and a virulant Anti-Calvinist:

I'm not a methodist My faith didn't come out of Calvinism or Catholicism.
The Bible is my soul authority. I don't care what other men have to say about it. All I care about is what the Bible says.
MB

 

[Rippon]

If that's true about God's will. Then everyone will be saved. God;s words says this is God's will;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So you think, based on 1 Timothy 2:4,that all people will be saved?!How long have you been a Universalist?

The calling of God is only effective if the man does not rebel.

Not quite.You don't believe God can override the powerful human will?!

Do you believe Romans 9:18 :"Therefore God has mercy on whom he he wants to have mercy,and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Scripture is against you all the way.God is Sovereign.He does whatever pleases Him.Everything He does is just.He could choose not to have mercy on anyone.Instead, He chose to have mercy on some --His elect.He does not have mercy on all as the Bible is against that notion.

I fail to see how he foreknew Gentiles.

Do you think only some Jewish people are the elect?!Of course not!God has His elect scattered among all races,tribes,nations and languages.Most of the elect are from the Gentiles.

After all if you have been foreknown of God then you must be a Jew.

How long have you believed this stuff?

I do believe scripture the problem is I don't believe the distortions you have been drawn into. The whole of your distorted view is dishonest and deceiving. I'm not ever going to fall for that nonsense.
MB

Romans 8:29,30 :"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.And those he predestined,he also called;those he called,he also justified;those he justified,he also glorified."

I have bought into Romans 8:29,30.You don't like it,so you try to spin it to your ends.But again,that Golden Chain is unbreakable.No one of those whom the Lord foreknows,predestined,called,justified and glorified can resist His Sovereign will.They don't want to.They love Him who died for them.

BTW,in Romans 8:29 the NLTse has "For God knew his people in advance..."The REB has :"For those whom God knew before they ever were..."

 

[J.D.]

The Best commentary ever made the Bible

I'm not a methodist My faith didn't come out of Calvinism or Catholicism.
The Bible is my soul authority. I don't care what other men have to say about it. All I care about is what the Bible says.
MB

Man, when you go off the deep end, you really go. You're gonna get lonely on that little island you're living on.

 

[Benjamin]

You keep calling it Irresistible Grace when Effectual calling is more precise.

Romans 8:29,30 says ;"For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn of many brothers.And those He predestined,He also called;and those He called,He also justified;and those He justified,He also glorified."

That's the unbreakable Golden Chain.No resistance can be found among that group.

And it is clear that everyone is not predestined in the sense of elected -called-justified-glorified.

Either brand you want to put on this false doctrine it (Irresistible Grace or Effectual Calling) still equals “cause and effect” Determinism. You have distorted the “Golden Chain”:

What it being ignored here, in the Calvinist’ interpretation of Romans 8:28,29, is the Divine order given of the scripture. “Foreknew” does not equal determinism; God did not pre-choose (as if by a whim) some to be saved and others to dammed to hell; this would clearly be against the nature of God’s justice as plainly stated in Deut 32:4. Yet, the Hyper-Calvinist will ignore both the nature of God and the order of salvation told to us in Romans and elsewhere to force fit his/her perception of what God’s sovereignty must consist of and to accomplish the doctrines of TULIP.

Further, they glory in their arrogance of espousing to others that they were “specially picked” while they relay the message of “THE Doctrine of Deterministic Selective Grace”. While doing so they inevitably boast against the True Light which effects the natural conscience of every man that comes into the world; Christ gives light to every man who comes into the world, (John 1:9). True, the saved are God’s elect, chosen in Him (Christ) as Eph 1:4 further explains:

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Hyper-Calvinist places “predestinate” before “foreknew” not only disregarding the spelled out inspirational order of election, but attempts to diminish the volition of men. In their distorted view of divine sovereignty they end up placing the responsibility of all things, including evil, on our Omnibenevolent God. They hold to a Deterministic view of election while sadly twisting and distorting the meanings of God having mercy on Whom He will have mercy to mean He predestined the elect on some sort of whim before the foundation rather than “after”…”they”…”trusted”… “in Him”! Comparing scripture to scripture we clearly see the volition of man:

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Simply, to change the Divine order of election is a false doctrine. To remove man’s volition in the matter of responsibility not only contrives to reduce His gracious design of saving the lost in truth, but does the work of Satan upon the seekers. Determinism is a damnable heresy of Hyper-Calvinist that should be condemned.

Any Calvinist doctrine which sets out to limit God’s love and grace is clearly Hyper-Calvinism, and I am in good company with this definition:

“Those who do believe a doctrine of God's limited love, limited grace, limited atonement, and unchangeable plan to damn millions who could not be saved, are called hyper-Calvinists.” ~John R Rice