Does God love everyone?

[MB]

He chose to die for only the ones He came to save -- namely the elect.It's something that's biblical whether you like it or not.

Where is it biblical? Is there another Bible on the market?

You have neglected to deal with verses 22 and 23 of Romans 9.
"What if God,although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known,bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction?What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy,whom he prepared in advance for glory?"

Clearly these verses reveal damnation/glorification -- namely the issue of salvation -- not some mere earthly privation/blessing.

Here is the rest of the story Rippon;
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

You claim to be one of His before Salvation but, you forget that only the Jews held this esteemed position. The Jews are His chosen people. If you're not a Jew stop applying Jewishness to your self.
You take Roms 9:22-23 and misapply it and then you ignore the rest of what has been said.

Nonsense.The Word of God is against you all the way.Take 1 Peter 1:1,2 for instance : "Peter,an apostle of Jesus Christ,To God's elect,exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,Galatia,Cappadocia,Asia and Bithynia,who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

See 2 Thess.2:13;and 2 Tim.1:9 for further confirmation which negates your position.

The people who Peter wrote this to, were already saved. They were strangers to him because he had never met them. In verse 7 he speaks of there faith. He isn't trying to convince them of Christ they already have faith. You'll have to do better than that.

Jesus Christ died for the whole world. Jn 3:16 Your claim that He only died for a pre-select few is direct denial of scripture. By your claim all those Jews who cried crucify Him are now saved because election is Salvific.
None of the scriptures you present prove a particular election. You're graspping at straws. Your claim here is indeed nonsense.
MB

 

[Rippon]

You claim to be one of His before Salvation ...

If you are a believer you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world as I was.That does not mean that Christians were born saved.We were children of wrath just like everyone else.

If you're not a Jew stop applying Jewishness to your self.

I've been grafted in;so have you if you are a believer.

You take Roms 9:22-23 and misapply it ...

I have applied it correctly.You think it has nothing to do with vessels of wrath -- the reprobate who will spend eternity in Christless misery and objects of mercy -- trophies of His grace who will spend eternity in glory with the Lord.

Jesus Christ died for the whole world. Jn 3:16 Your claim that He only died for a pre-select few is direct denial of scripture.

Christ did not die for those to whom He will say "I never knew you."

Christ did not die for those to whom He chose not to reveal saving knowledge.

Christ did not die for those He did not pray for.

Christ did not die for those He has hated.

Christ did not die for the goats.

The Bible is very particular.Christ died for the Church alone -- not the Church and everyone else.

Christ died for -- laid down His life for the sheep alone.

I could go on.However you can see that your claims are baseless.

By your claim all those Jews who cried crucify Him are now saved because election is Salvific.

You're not making any sense here.We aren't talking about the elect nation of Israel.Everyone in Israel is not really elect in the salvific sense.

None of the scriptures you present prove a particular election.
MB

The scriptural citations I gave dealt with election being salvific.And biblical New Testament election is indeed salvific.

 

[MB]

If you are a believer you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world as I was.That does not mean that Christians were born saved.We were children of wrath just like everyone else.

You neglect the fact that we weren't in Him before the foundation of the world. Christ chose those "in Him" In other words when we believe and accept Christ we are in Him, if we don't we are still vessels of wrath. All men are drawn because Christ was lifted up on that cross. Since all men are drawn all men have two possibilities for there future. It isn't something men choose for themselves but instead are convinced of by the Spirit and the Word. The reason one man is saved and another isn't is rebellion not a choice of Salvation. When men are drawn they can hear and understand. other wise they wouldn't be drawn.

I've been grafted in;so have you if you are a believer.

I am a believer in Christ Jesus. I have experinced the works of Him in my life

I have applied it correctly.You think it has nothing to do with vessels of wrath -- the reprobate who will spend eternity in Christless misery and objects of mercy -- trophies of His grace who will spend eternity in glory with the Lord.

You believe this only because you have stopped at verse 23. Expand it to include the whole chapter as being just as meaningfull. What about verses 24-26?

Christ did not die for those to whom He will say "I never knew you."

Sure He did He died for the whole world as I showed you.

Christ did not die for those to whom He chose not to reveal saving knowledge.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This above says your wrong about people knowing. It's written on our hearts.

Christ did not die for those He did not pray for.

Christ did not die for those He has hated.

Christ did not die for the goats.

The Bible is very particular.Christ died for the Church alone -- not the Church and everyone else.

Christ died for -- laid down His life for the sheep alone.

I could go on.However you can see that your claims are baseless.

Not true no where does scripture say he died only for the sheep.

You're not making any sense here.We aren't talking about the elect nation of Israel.Everyone in Israel is not really elect in the salvific sense.

Then this isn't in scripture?
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

The scriptural citations I gave dealt with election being salvific.And biblical New Testament election is indeed salvific.

No it isn't and you didn't give any citations on this post that are exact quotes from scripture.
ia

 

[JPPT1974]

He loves us as we are.
Red, yellow, black, white, etc.
They are precious in His sight!
Jesus loves everybody regardless
Of race, color, creed.

 

[Rippon]

He loves us as we are.
Red, yellow, black, white, etc.
They are precious in His sight!
Jesus loves everybody regardless
Of race, color, creed.

That sounds more like a slogan from Fred Rogers.So in your view God has a generic love for everyone,huh?

 

[skypair]

Christ did not die for those to whom He will say "I never knew you."

Refer to the "General Discussion" topic "Atonement." He made propitiation for ALL sin but He did not atone for -- bring anyone into a right relationship with God -- who didn't believe.

Did He die for them and for their sins? YES. Did He make them right with God? NO. To do so requires BELIEF and REPENTANCE on their part.

skypair

 

[webdog]

That sounds more like a slogan from Fred Rogers.So in your view God has a generic love for everyone,huh?

Can't say if Fred Rogers ever quoted John 3:16, but if he did... :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Can't say if Fred Rogers ever quoted John 3:16, but if he did... :thumbs:

So WD,do you think John 3:16 teaches that God has a generic love for everyone?

 

[webdog]

So WD,do you think John 3:16 teaches that God has a generic love for everyone?

How dare you refer to God's love as generic! I believe God has a real, genuine love for everyone. Why? He said so!

 

[Rippon]

How dare you refer to God's love as generic!

Well,ok.You seemed to be in agreement that God's love was generic earlier.Now you oppose that idea.

You know me better than to believe that God's love is generic.His love is particular;not general.

I believe God has a real, genuine love for everyone. Why? He said so!

Opps!I spoke too soon.You DO believe that God has the same kind of love for everyone.You must believe that God loved Essau as much as Jacob.You must think that God loved Ishmael as much as Isaac.And on and on.

 

[MB]

Well,ok.You seemed to be in agreement that God's love was generic earlier.Now you oppose that idea.

You know me better than to believe that God's love is generic.His love is particular;not general.




Opps!I spoke too soon.You DO believe that God has the same kind of love for everyone.You must believe that God loved Essau as much as Jacob.You must think that God loved Ishmael as much as Isaac.And on and on.

One thing I know of Esau is that God must of loved him because he forgave his brother for tricking him out of his inheritance and didn't kill him as Jacob was afraid he would. To forgive is devine. I know when we forgive an offense we are also forgiven.
MB

 

[Rippon]

One thing I know of Esau is that God must of loved him because he forgave his brother for tricking him out of his inheritance and didn't kill him as Jacob was afraid he would. To forgive is devine. I know when we forgive an offense we are also forgiven.
MB

So the words of Scripture don't mean what they say -- you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the fact that God hated Esau to really mean that God loved him.How convenient; and my how you twist the Bible so glibly.

So to be consistent shall we retranslate John 3:16?! God really hated the world?!After all, in your exegetical world hate means love -- so surely love must mean hate!

 

[skypair]

So the words of Scripture don't mean what they say -- you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the fact that God hated Esau to really mean that God loved him.How convenient; and my how you twist the Bible so glibly.

Your argument is based on only one verse?? You know better than to make one verse speak for the whole Bible! It MUST be that you misinterpretted that one verse.

And, indeed, you have. Written hundreds of years after Esau was dead, it reflects God's hate for the intolerance of Esau's descendants.

God loves everyone the same at birth. We are ALL born innocent and God has hopes that ALL of us will find Christ and that He will make EVERYONE'S life an abundant one! He grants mercy to ALL, as well, in the loving hope (Rom 2:4) that they will come to repentance. Even our American forefathers understood this when they said we were born with inalienable rights. One of them -- if the Bible, fairness, and justice are to be upheld -- is the love of God. This is an absolute necessity in order that man, himself, will be RESPONSIBLE for his own destiny. He cannot blame it on God that he didn't receive what others did.

Your problem is that Calvinism CAN'T allow God to love all people the same. It would destroy their paradigm that it wasn't them who were "foreloved" and "chosen" and "gifted" with the Spirit before salvation (which, ironically, they don't consider to be a "merit" or "anything found in them" that God should save only them).

Rip, you need to at last admit that Calvinism is a failed "system." You're trying to make love mean anything but what the Bible says it means and then to restrict the universality of God's love to boot!

skypair

 

[MB]

So the words of Scripture don't mean what they say -- you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the fact that God hated Esau to really mean that God loved him.How convenient; and my how you twist the Bible so glibly.

I never for one minute ever thought you'd think any different of me. However your the one with the problem of proving that God is partial. You never want to discuss scripture as a whole because of your own twisted theology. You only want to discuss part of what scripture says because you don't want to consider the whole truth.

So to be consistent shall we retranslate John 3:16?! God really hated the world?!After all, in your exegetical world hate means love -- so surely love must mean hate!

That is what you do to reach the conclusion you have. By saying God is particular. You're saying that God hates those He hasn't chosen when He died for the whole world. Jn 3:16 says God loves the whole world so much that He died for it. You know the truth but you still deny it to hang on to the imaginations of men. Particular election isn't in scripture.
MB

 

[Rippon]

God loves everyone the same at birth. We are ALL born innocent and God has hopes that ALL of us will find Christ ...

No God does not love everyone the same at birth.You are against the Word of God -- See Ro.9:13 among other references to disprove your contention.

No one is born innocent.You really need to study the Bible more.Consult Ps.51:5;Ps.58:3;Is.48:8 and Ro.5:12-19.

"God has hopes..."Are you trying to say that God has unfullied desires?!

He grants mercy to ALL...

No,God has mercy on some,the rest He hardens.See Ro.9:14 to get a more biblical view.

Even our American forefathers understood this when they said we were born with inalienable rights.

Don't quote a secular document as if it has some biblical merit.Thomas Jefferson was a Deist -- he'd be a Unitarian today.Have you heard of the Jefferson Bible?It was full of holes -- much like your philosophy/theology.

...man, himself, will be RESPONSIBLE for his own destiny.

Rubbish!Will you be the new pastor of the Crystal Cathedral?You've got that man-centered ethos down pat.

... Calvinism CAN'T allow God to love all people the same.

Correction,the Bible teaches that God doesn't love all the same.Calvinism follows the Bible's lead.

Rip, you need to at last admit that Calvinism is a failed "system."

I will admit no such thing!Based on what criteria can it be classified as a "failed system"? Shall we come to that conclusion based on your misrepresentations/slanders?

You're trying to make love mean anything but what the Bible says it means and then to restrict the universality of God's love to boot!

Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her.Christ died for her alone.Christ did not die for the Church (and btw -- everybody else too).That's just nonsensical.

God's love is international -- He has His own scattered around the globe.His elect are from among every nation,tribe and language.

 

[ktn4eg]

God loves everyone the same at birth. We are ALL born innocent and God has hopes that ALL of us will find Christ and that He will make EVERYONE'S life an abundant one!

Thanks for finally explaining to me what God's Holy Spirit meant when He inspired David to write these words that are found in Psalm 58:3 --

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Had it not been for your perfectly logical explanation of what God the Holy Spirit really meant when He inspired David to pen those words, I would have spent the rest of my life in absolute and total confusion about how to interpret this verse.

My friend, you have indeed done me a very great service, and I do appreciate your doing so.

 

[skypair]

So it seems to be...

... the consistent opinion around here that all infants who die go to hell. Is that what I am hearing? That none of these scriptural indictments of the unborn and the newly born is given in POETIC language?

(BTW, rip, Isa 48:8 appears to have nothing at all to do with the argument and Rom 5:12-19 tells us that we all follow Adam in that "we all sin" -- we all commit sin, not we all are guilty of Adam's sin.)

Try Ezek 18:20 for me -- "[1] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. [2] The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:..." -- and tell me how it is even possible to be guilty of Adam's original sin.

And tell me how this is statement in Rom 5:13 is untrue: "sin is not imputed when there is no law." Are infants imbued with the law somehow at birth?

As I have told rip before, "original sin" was taught by the Catholics and "held over" by the Reformers as a means to "capture" converts with the notion that, if their children weren't baptized for original sin shortly after birth, they would go to hell. That is all in the world there ever was to infant baptism and original sin laid on you at infancy!

skypair

 

[MB]

No God does not love everyone the same at birth.You are against the Word of God -- See Ro.9:13 among other references to disprove your contention.

Very poor evidence of your position. Maybe you could show us what Babies are guilty of the second they are born.

No one is born innocent.You really need to study the Bible more.Consult Ps.51:5;

This doesn't say he was a sinner but says he was made in sin Ps.58:3; This says the baby is with drawn at birth nope I see no baby sinner at birth. Is.48:8 This is about Idols for crying out loud. and Ro.5:12-19. Nope there is no infant sinners who was a sinner from birth.
Proof yet again that your claims that Babies are guilty the moment they take there first breath just isn't provable. Then you claim I twist scripture better get that log out of your own eye first, before you attempt to take the splinter out of mine.

"God has hopes..."Are you trying to say that God has unfullied desires?!

What does unfullied mean? Are you speaking to us in Korean?

No,God has mercy on some,the rest He hardens.See Ro.9:14 to get a more biblical view.

Here is Rom. 9:14 and what it says;
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Where does it say anything about hardening? As far as I can tell you seem to be the one who needs study.

Don't quote a secular document as if it has some biblical merit.Thomas Jefferson was a Deist -- he'd be a Unitarian today.Have you heard of the Jefferson Bible?It was full of holes -- much like your philosophy/theology.

Sort like Calvinism you mean.

Rubbish!Will you be the new pastor of the Crystal Cathedral?You've got that man-centered ethos down pat.

Correction,the Bible teaches that God doesn't love all the same.Calvinism follows the Bible's lead.

Wrong the Bible says no such thing. It says God loves the whole world.

I will admit no such thing!Based on what criteria can it be classified as a "failed system"? Shall we come to that conclusion based on your misrepresentations/slanders?

No slander just truth. Your view has been shown to be false from every possible angle. It has always been false and still is because, it isn't biblical. You take a few verses and build an entire doctrine out of them discarding the rest of scripture. This is the problem you have with proving it to be true.

Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her.Christ died for her alone.Christ did not die for the Church (and btw -- everybody else too).That's just nonsensical.

Again this is your mistake you take a verse then add your own idea to it because it doesn't say He died just for the church.

God's love is international -- He has His own scattered around the globe.His elect are from among every nation,tribe and language.

Well you got one thing right now if we could just get you to see that everyone has been chosen for Salvation.
MB

 

[webdog]

Thanks for finally explaining to me what God's Holy Spirit meant when He inspired David to write these words that are found in Psalm 58:3 --

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Had it not been for your perfectly logical explanation of what God the Holy Spirit really meant when He inspired David to pen those words, I would have spent the rest of my life in absolute and total confusion about how to interpret this verse.

My friend, you have indeed done me a very great service, and I do appreciate your doing so.

So is it from the womb...or conception (Ps. 51:5)? Is the Holy Spirit confused...or are you?

It's amazing that this verse is taken literaly with the symbolism throughout (venom, lions, etc.)

 

[Rippon]

However your the one with the problem of proving that God is partial. You never want to discuss scripture as a whole because of your own twisted theology. You only want to discuss part of what scripture says because you don't want to consider the whole truth.

Well,when you can't get the thrust of a single verse correct -- how are you supposed to deal with other passages in which you also will muddle-up?

In Romans 9:13 does God hate or love Esau?It's a very straightforward text.

That is what you do to reach the conclusion you have. By saying God is particular.

Yes,God is particular!He has a particular people.He came for a particular purpose.God is not nebuolus.He is not indefinite.The message of the Gospel is that God has a particular people in view for which He gave His Son as a sacrificial Lamb.

Aren't you familiar with Baptist History?In the early 17th century the Particular Baptists distinguished themselves from the General Baptists.The "particular" tage was in reference to the scope of the Atonement.

You're saying that God hates those He hasn't chosen when He died for the whole world.

I am saying that God hates those who will remain under His continual wrath for eternity.Some other Calvinists here will disagree with me on that score.They will say that God has a special love for His elect -- but that he has a general love or benevolence for the non-elect.

God's love is for many scattered throughout the world -- from among every nation,tribe and language. But that does not mean God has a love for each and every person who has,is,and shall live.

Jn 3:16 says God loves the whole world so much that He died for it. You know the truth but you still deny it to hang on to the imaginations of men. Particular election isn't in scripture.
MB

You hang on to tradition rather tenaciously.The text doesn't say that God loved the world soo much that He died for it.

From the HCSB : For God loved the world in this way:He gave His One and Only Son,so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

From the NJB : For this is how God loved the world:he gave his only Son,so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

There are other translations which express the same idea.

The ones He loves are the ones who believe.The love of God is restrictive.

Particular election is all through the Scripture.The Lord laid down His life for the sheep,not the goats.Christ gave Himself for the Church -- not the Church and the non-church too.Charles H.Spurgeon said something to the effect that the doctrine is so prominent in the Word of God you could find passages while running --they are so prevalent.