Does God love everyone?

[Rippon]

And no my friend scripture does not state in any fashion the 'drawing' is always results in salvation.

It's undeniably true according to Scripture that all who are drawn are savingly united with Christ.All those given to Christ from the Father are also raised up on the last day -- none of them will be lost.You rest on the laurels of your personal philosophy;not the B-I-B-L-E.There is no a hint of any doubt that all who are drawn are united with Christ.Stick with the Scripture -- not your personal ideas.

The drawing of God can lead to salvation but it does not do so always.

That's just foul-smelling tripe.You're not even pretending to get this nonsense of yours from the Word.

 

[Rippon]

I noticed you chose NOT to place the passages of scripture from John which state what I said about those believing being raised up and not those who are drawn.

They are one and the same group!

Because it is no garrentee(sic) that those who are drawn will believe.

I don't believe that you have the nerve to deny plain Scripture so readily on a public forum! All of the drawn ones are given to Christ from the Father.They will be raised up on the last day -- Christ will lose none of the ones He has thus been given.

Make up your own bible if you want to -- but your reasoning is against the Holy Word of God.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From TNIV

From the beginning He said His creation was “very good” and He doesn’t lie. He didn’t create evil or predestine men to be evil because there is no evil in Him.

Where are you getting this stuff from?! You certainly aren't getting it from my posts!You better stick to what I say without inventing [inflamatory language removed] stuff and attributing it to me.

I not only deny the Calvinist’ doctrines of predestination but consider them hypercalvinistic dogma that does the work of Satan upon seekers.

Well maybe you need to broaden your reading.If you don't know the difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism you shouldn't post until you know what you're talking about.And you really need to lay off the Satan stuff.

I don’t deny any verses of scripture about hate, I understand them, being rooted and grounded in God’s love. It is the determinists that won’t stop trying to prove their fallacies.

But apparently you do in fact deny them -- you certainly do not affirm them.I'm proving that the Scripture affirms that God in fact hates some people.It's not a fallacy when the Bible teaches this.

Hypercalvinist not only thrive on doctrines of God’s hate but they declare Him being as evil and a liar to boot, which they must resort to while attempting to force fit their deterministic interpretations.

I am not a H-C though you apparently in your naivety insist that I am.I resent your saying that I think God is evil and a liar.As a matter of fact you are sinning by saying such trash.God is the very definition of goodness and Truth.He is the very Truth and the Life.

I will be telling them how much God loves them, but hates sin.

You can't assure anyone that God loves them anymore than you can guarantee someone that Christ died specifically for them.

Since you believe that God loves the sinner -- but hates the sin --- How do you reconcile that with Psalm 5:5,6?

"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence.You hate all who do wrong;you destroy those who tell lies.The bloodthirsty and deceitful you,Lord,detest."

It's rather clear here that there are some people that the Lord hates.He doesn't just hate the sin -- but the sinner!

The Devil must love this sick doctrine that is allowed to be espoused on this board!

Well,I do know the Devil loves lies and you have told some whoppers about me.(BTW,God hates liars.)I have an idea.Why don't you take all the passages in the Bible where it says that God hates,detests,despises,and abominates certain people and try to explain them away.Then come back and report back to me with your half-eaten hat in your hand.

 

[Rippon]

The plain reading of Scripture does NOT lend itself to the calvinistic interpretation, but that view has to be presupposed into the reading.

Why don't you tell your Calvinistic pastor what you just posted and get his reaction?

 

[Rippon]

For those that believe that Calvinism is the "whole counsel of the word of God", do you teach your children the "whole counsel" and tell them that they may not have been elected to salvation? Do you tell them that they may be damned to hell because they weren't elected? Do you tell those you witness to that they may not be able to accept Christ because they are not "chosen"?

If this is the "whole counsel" of God, then you must present it to those you witness to.

The doctrines of Calvinism (and that goes way beyond the so-called five points) are Biblical.The "whole counsel of God" in other translations like the REB and NRSV say it's "the whole purpose of God".It takes a long time to cover the whole purpose of God.One session will not suffice.

The subject of elction doesn't necessarily have to be brought up (it may)in a single one-time meeting with an unsaved person.

I had several opportunities last week.Both of the ones I'm thinking of were unsaved and even God-haters.I didn't mention election.On other occasions the Lord leads differently.But most recently I brought out John 3:16,17 and Romans 1 and 2.( One even looked aghast that I would even open the Bible in front of her!)

Amy I think some of your "questions" were not sincere at all.You should "know" me by now as to what I believe.

 

[Rippon]

If I truly believed God intended to allow all men to be damned and save only a few, I would be preaching just that, after all, only the few will "get it" anyways.

If God intended "all men" to be damned He would not save a few.Perhaps you meant "most people".You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that broad is the way to destruction and narrow is the way to life eternal.Most of humanity will be in perdition -- the remnant will be in glory.

We are to preach/teach to generally -- not restrictively.You guys on the other side of the aisle always seem confused (about many things) -- but one thing in particular -- Calvinists believe that the design of the Atonement was definite.However the proclamation of the Law/Gospel is wide and diffused.There is no contradiction.

 

[Allan]

It's undeniably true according to Scripture that all who are drawn are savingly united with Christ.All those given to Christ from the Father are also raised up on the last day -- none of them will be lost.You rest on the laurels of your personal philosophy;not the B-I-B-L-E.There is no a hint of any doubt that all who are drawn are united with Christ.Stick with the Scripture -- not your personal ideas.

If you opinions were "undeniably true according to Scripture" then everyone would be Calvinistic. But the facts (in this) are that you are wrong. Sorry but the truth is the truth no matter how much fantisy you wish to believe. Not all who are drawn will be saved, but all the save are indeed drawn.

Secondly, all that the Father gave Christ will not be lost - is indisputable and no non-cal denies this, must certainly not me. However the scripture does not in any fashion state that only those He gave to Christ were drawn - period, the end! Notice in your cherry-picked verses (regarding all those who will be raised up) there is no mention of drawing inparticular . Nope no mention of those who are drawn will be raised up, only those who believe. Yep that is B-I-B-L-E though you might be more correct in that it is not Calvinism.

You are trying desperately to argue a view from silence in John 6. And that is why you fail in doing so.

That's just foul-smelling tripe.You're not even pretending to get this nonsense of yours from the Word.

Your right - I'm not pretending, it comes directly from it. And it is the sweet aroma of the meet (T-Bone steak) of the Word of God. What you might be smelling is your soured milk view :laugh:

Calling and drawing are one and the same. I bet if you look in Gods word you can find where not everone whom God called responded positively (and no there isn't two types of God's calling). If you need help in researching this just ask.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NLTse

Your argument falls apart very quickly, and is built on presupposition, not biblical truth.
No man is "damned" for being born from the womb. Man is "damned" for sinning...this is what Scripture has taught from Adam and Eve untilt the last man is born.

Really?!

Psalm 51:5 : For I was born a sinner -- yes,from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 : These wicked people are born sinners;even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8b : For I know so well what traitors you are.You have been rebels from birth.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From TNIV

and yes he will have mercy on whom He will and He did have mercy on the whole world.

Romans 9:15 : "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (TNIV)

As the Great Sovereign the Lord has the perfect right to choose His favored subjects.Subjects having absolutely no merit of their own.

God had mercy on Abel -- not Cain. God had mercy on Noah's family and no one else (out of millions!).God had mercy on Jacob -- not Esau.It goes on and on and on.The Lord selects His own.The Lord does not have mercy (and we are speaking of salvific mercy) on every person head-for-head who ever existed,does exist and shall exist.

 

[Allan]

I don't believe that you have the nerve to deny plain Scripture so readily on a public forum! All of the drawn ones are given to Christ from the Father.They will be raised up on the last day -- Christ will lose none of the ones He has thus been given.

I don't but I am and have been declaring them to you so that you can come to the knowledge of this truth Rippon. Scripture does not in any manner state "all of the drawn ones are given to Christ". It states that those who come to Christ (salvation) are drawn but this in no way insinuates no one else is drawn. Most specifically because scripture proves this point of yours false.

I'll help you with some of those verses I asked you to look into:

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

And just to re-inforce my point the apostle Paul references verse 24 about Him stretching out His hands (calling and their refusing) in Romans 10

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Add to that Jesus using the metaphor that He would have gathered them together but they did not want to. How could they not want to unless God was calling to them?
Or in Isaiah:

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.

Remember the question of why did God hate some - look here:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

God get pretty darn upset here for calling to them and they choose not to answer Him:

Jer 7:13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;

And here as well:

Jer 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Hosea has some pretty rough words to about those whom He called and they didnot come:

Hsa 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt [him].

Or.. you know the parable Jesus told about the wedding feast dealing with many are called (all Jews and Gentiles) but few are chosen.

And so on and so forth.. Drawing is the same as the calling and it seems that scripture is pretty consistant with me on this. God draws/calls all men everywhere but not all will respond to His calling/drawing positively. Thus every saved person is drawn by Christ but this does not negate the fact that God is not drawing/calling all those who reject Him.

Make up your own bible if you want to -- but your reasoning is against the Holy Word of God.

I think I have proved you to be consistantly wrong on this. But oh well. I can say nothing more on it because you wont listen no matter how true it is.

 

[Allan]

Romans 9:15 : "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (TNIV)

As the Great Sovereign the Lord has the perfect right to choose His favored subjects.Subjects having absolutely no merit of their own.

God had mercy on Abel -- not Cain. God had mercy on Noah's family and no one else (out of millions!).God had mercy on Jacob -- not Esau.It goes on and on and on.The Lord selects His own.The Lord does not have mercy (and we are speaking of salvific mercy) on every person head-for-head who ever existed,does exist and shall exist.

Actually God did have mercy on Cain and even pleaded with him to do right. God had mercy on all world 120 years in dealing with world and Noah. Though I will agree that His mercy had an end when none would repent (which He knew).But like Cain He gave them all a time of mercy to repent and get right with the Lord who was calling out to them (Cain - God personally talked with him / the world _ God through Noah was speaking to them)
God had a great deal of mercy on Esau and Blessed him mightly or have you not read those scriptures yet?

His mercy is that He does not give them what they deserve. And if there is any delay in judgment then my friend we can only state it is due to His mercy.

 

[webdog]

Why don't you tell your Calvinistic pastor what you just posted and get his reaction?

We have had our debates, and his reaction is a total 180 from yours...we can agree to disagree pleasantly without the vitriol you spew.

 

[webdog]

Really?!

Psalm 51:5 : For I was born a sinner -- yes,from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 : These wicked people are born sinners;even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8b : For I know so well what traitors you are.You have been rebels from birth.

As I asked you in the past (with no reply), one Psalm states from the moment of conception one is a sinner...the other from birth. That's a 9 month window...which is it? It amazes me the figurative language calvinists take as literal, and the literal language calvinists claim to be figurative :BangHead:

 

[MB]

Romans 9:15 : "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (TNIV)

As the Great Sovereign the Lord has the perfect right to choose His favored subjects.Subjects having absolutely no merit of their own.

He sure does and He chose to die for the whole world whether Calvinist like it or not. Now that's what I call real mercy. He has given the whole world a chance to live in eternity with Him.
Great isn't it? Of course it is because it's God's mercy.:godisgood:

God had mercy on Abel -- not Cain. God had mercy on Noah's family and no one else (out of millions!).God had mercy on Jacob -- not Esau.It goes on and on and on.The Lord selects His own.The Lord does not have mercy (and we are speaking of salvific mercy) on every person head-for-head who ever existed,does exist and shall exist.

You have neglected to realize that Abel believed and so did Cain. They both built an alter. Cain didn't sacrifice correctly and wasn't prased by God. Neither one of them was chosen over the other even though Cain was driven off and made a vaggabond because he murdered Abel in a jealous rage and then lied about it to God.. Noah was the only righteous man and his family was glad he was because they were saved for Noah's sake. Jacob was also a believer but Esau believed in himself. None of these choosings had anything to do with Salvation from hell. Which is something else you neglected.
Paul wrote;
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Did you know that you're not saved unless you submit to the righteousness of God? The Jews thought they could become righteous but they for got to submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
The Israel Paul prayed for were the original elect. Yet they were lost anyway. Election doesn't have salvific value, because we are chosen in Him and we aren't in Him until we accept His truth and become convinced by the Word and the Spirit. Then can we have the gift of faith that leads to Salvation and not before.
MB

 

[ray Marshall]

He sure does and He chose to die for the whole world whether Calvinist like it or not. Now that's what I call real mercy. He has given the whole world a chance to live in eternity with Him.
Great isn't it? Of course it is because it's God's mercy.:godisgood:


You have neglected to realize that Abel believed and so did Cain. They both built an alter. Cain didn't sacrifice correctly and wasn't prased by God. Neither one of them was chosen over the other even though Cain was driven off and made a vaggabond because he murdered Abel in a jealous rage and then lied about it to God.. Noah was the only righteous man and his family was glad he was because they were saved for Noah's sake. Jacob was also a believer but Esau believed in himself. None of these choosings had anything to do with Salvation from hell. Which is something else you neglected.
Paul wrote;
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Did you know that you're not saved unless you submit to the righteousness of God? The Jews thought they could become righteous but they for got to submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
The Israel Paul prayed for were the original elect. Yet they were lost anyway. Election doesn't have salvific value, because we are chosen in Him and we aren't in Him until we accept His truth and become convinced by the Word and the Spirit. Then can we have the gift of faith that leads to Salvation and not before.
MB

And to abel and his offering GOD had respect, but to cain, GOD had no respect to his offering , nor to Cain either.

 

[webdog]

And to abel and his offering GOD had respect, but to cain, GOD had no respect to his offering , nor to Cain either.

Not arbitrarily, but because of disobedience.

 

[skypair]

Really?!

Psalm 51:5 : For I was born a sinner -- yes,from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 : These wicked people are born sinners;even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8b : For I know so well what traitors you are.You have been rebels from birth.

How do you feel about abortion seeing it is not the taking of "innocent" life but the elimination of a "totally depraved" soul that probably would only further "blight" the earth??

skypair

 

[ktn4eg]

In your post #54 to me you stated this:

IOW - of and by himself = without God's intervention of any sort or grace.

This is shown even more clearly in your post #91 to Luk. which qualifies what you meant by "by himself":


The later quote is Pelagianism pure and simple and it is typically the assumed view by Cals of all those not Cals. It is incorrect by far and large though I dare say there might be a few who actually believes such non-sense - it is not a view held in main by non-Cals or even Arminians.


I didn't recieve a PM from you??

Check to see if it actaully got sent.

Friend Allan,

I do hereby repent in sackcloth and ashes, but there have been some valid reasons why you didn't get the PM until now. I'll spare the others my reasons, but, trust me, my PM to you will be the very next thing I do once I hit the "Submit Reply" button on this post!!

 

[Allan]

Friend Allan,

I do hereby repent in sackcloth and ashes, but there have been some valid reasons why you didn't get the PM until now. I'll spare the others my reasons, but, trust me, my PM to you will be the very next thing I do once I hit the "Submit Reply" button on this post!!

Brother, I think you took what I said in the wrong manner.

You had stated you sent me a PM already. I was merely asking if you had, and asked to check to see if it was sent (by looking in your sent folder).

Actaully, I received your PM and sent you one in return but when I checked my sent fold to delete some old things, I noticed it was not there. I hope you received it but if you did not I will simply state I did not understand what the letter was about. I was honestly confused by it.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From TNIV

He chose to die for the whole world whether Calvinist like it or not.

He chose to die for only the ones He came to save -- namely the elect.It's something that's biblical whether you like it or not.

Jacob was also a believer but Esau believed in himself. None of these choosings had anything to do with Salvation from hell. Which is something else you neglected.

You have neglected to deal with verses 22 and 23 of Romans 9.

"What if God,although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known,bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction?What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy,whom he prepared in advance for glory?"

Clearly these verses reveal damnation/glorification -- namely the issue of salvation -- not some mere earthly privation/blessing.

Election doesn't have salvific value...
MB

Nonsense.The Word of God is against you all the way.Take 1 Peter 1:1,2 for instance : "Peter,an apostle of Jesus Christ,To God's elect,exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,Galatia,Cappadocia,Asia and Bithynia,who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

See 2 Thess.2:13;and 2 Tim.1:9 for further confirmation which negates your position.