Does God love everyone?

[Benjamin]

Okay,so you don't believe in the whole counsel of the Word of God.

God is love;but love is not God.That is not His sole attribute.Do you think that His justice,wrath,and holiness should also be swept under the rug?

If you truly considered the whole counsel of God’s Word you would see that from the beginning He created the whole world in His love and offered all men the water of life freely from beginning to end. From the beginning He said His creation was “very good” and He doesn’t lie. He didn’t create evil or predestine men to be evil because there is no evil in Him.

I have personally met folks that have denied that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination.They did not care that I could show them evidence in the Bible for it -- their minds were made up.

I not only deny the Calvinist’ doctrines of predestination but consider them hypercalvinistic dogma that does the work of Satan upon seekers. I have dealt with every scripture presented or taught by determinists and could care less what they “think” it evidences.

You deny the verses in the Scriptures which clearly state that God hates some people.How far do you wish to go in denying biblical doctrines?Where will it stop?

I don’t deny any verses of scripture about hate, I understand them, being rooted and grounded in God’s love. It is the determinists that won’t stop trying to prove their fallacies.

I certainly do not advocate having a series of sermons on the Hatred of God but when it comes up in the text -- what would you do if you were a preacher?Would you evade those verses?Would you like to excise them?

Hypercalvinist not only thrive on doctrines of God’s hate but they declare Him being as evil and a liar to boot, which they must resort to while attempting to force fit their deterministic interpretations.

I understand an Omnibenevolent God is an enemy to evil, He hates it, and has wrath against it, so I know how to interpret such verses. God loves the world He created and He gave His Son for any man who would freely choose to love Him back. As for preaching, I was asked to fill in some time this coming Sunday and I chose to preach on the Great Commission. In two weeks I will be presenting the Gospel at a secular college and I will be telling them how much God loves them, but hates sin.

Really Rippon, when you put your children in bed at night do you tell them that God might hate them? That God might have predestined them to go to hell? The Devil must love this sick doctrine that is allowed to be espoused on this board!

 

[annsni]

If you truly considered the whole counsel of God’s Word you would see that from the beginning He created the whole world in His love and offered all men the water of life freely from beginning to end. From the beginning He said His creation was “very good” and He doesn’t lie. He didn’t create evil or predestine men to be evil because there is no evil in Him.

I don't see anyone say that God created evil or that He makes men evil. That was their own choice.

I not only deny the Calvinist’ doctrines of predestination but consider them hypercalvinistic dogma that does the work of Satan upon seekers. I have dealt with every scripture presented or taught by determinists and could care less what they “think” it evidences.



I don’t deny any verses of scripture about hate, I understand them, being rooted and grounded in God’s love. It is the determinists that won’t stop trying to prove their fallacies.



Hypercalvinist not only thrive on doctrines of God’s hate but they declare Him being as evil and a liar to boot, which they must resort to while attempting to force fit their deterministic interpretations.

I do not see anywhere that a Calvinist has called God a liar or evil. Can you show that to me? Can you give me a quote?

I understand an Omnibenevolent God is an enemy to evil, He hates it, and has wrath against it, so I know how to interpret such verses. God loves the world He created and He gave His Son for any man who would freely choose to love Him back. As for preaching, I was asked to fill in some time this coming Sunday and I chose to preach on the Great Commission. In two weeks I will be presenting the Gospel at a secular college and I will be telling them how much God loves them, but hates sin.

Really Rippon, when you put your children in bed at night do you tell them that God might hate them? That God might have predestined them to go to hell? The Devil must love this sick doctrine that is allowed to be espoused on this board!

It is not a sick doctrine. It's Biblical and you might want to do some more study through God's glasses rather than the glasses of Arminianism. It's all honestly pretty clear IMO. And I've come to that conclusion by reading Scripture - not through anyone's teachings.

 

[webdog]

I don't see anyone say that God created evil or that He makes men evil. That was their own choice.

It's the logical conclusion to the doctrine.

It is not a sick doctrine. It's Biblical and you might want to do some more study through God's glasses rather than the glasses of Arminianism. It's all honestly pretty clear IMO. And I've come to that conclusion by reading Scripture - not through anyone's teachings.

This is the haughty attitude that seems to be more and more prevalent amongst calvinists...that those not calvinists don't hold to "biblical" doctrine, and don't read Scripture through "God's glasses". I'm sorry, but I really have a hard time believing ANY calvinist comes to this doctrine without reading ANY reformers writings. The plain reading of Scripture does NOT lend itself to the calvinistic interpretation, but that view has to be presupposed into the reading. John 3:16 read plainly does not support calvinism. Romans 1 does not support calvinism. It takes much wiggling to state someone receiving a gift is "work", they are the reason the gift was given, or they deserve the gift for accepting it. Scripture plainly teaches God has given a gift, and He wants us to accept it.

 

[MB]

Back in 1991 when soldiers were deployed in Desert storm, I was up at our local armory to be with my Brother-in-law the day that his unit was leaving to go to a training facility. Soon the Buses came rolling in to take them there. In about 45 minutes the Sergent shoted "All aboard", Well I or any of their families didn't board the buses. Why wouldn't all the entire group of families start load on to the bus?

I don't deny that there are times in which the word all is not all inclusive. I do deny that it is never all inclusive. In Jn 12:32 the word "all" is accompanied by an adjective which is "men" which makes the word all inclusive where men are concerned.
The word "all" above in your analogy only included all those in the sergeant’s charge. Still if this had been an evacuation for instance then the word all would have been all inclusive. This sergeant misused the word in ignorance. Even though it was generally known to whom he was referring.

at another time, I was told by a Brother in CHRIST that he and another of Man of a different demonination was driving on the interstate and was discussing the topic that "ALL" meant all regardless of what, this brother in CHRIST had told him that it doesn't include all of Adam's race. They were in a pretty heated discussion and during that ride, the dear old Brother pulled over for his pickup truck to be weighed like all the big rigs had to go on to the scales . This friend asked him why was he in the weighing land and he told him that the sign somewhere back had said all trucks in this lane. Well his friend told him that he didn't have to be weighed, it was for only the big rigs. The dear old brother said, 'Well, that's what I have been trying to tell you ever sense we have been driving down the thisinterstate." so you see, all doesn't always mean all. This is how GOD has written upon the pages of the Bible. Some believe because they have been Quickened of GOD, some will never be quickened because GOD left then as they are.
John 5:21 says, "For the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them; so the son quickeneth whom he will."
And Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in sin; and verses 2,3,4,5,6,and 7.
Thats it!
Appalachian-american

Signs on the highway where I live do not say all trucks but, instead says all commercial traffic. It is only commercial traffic, that has to comply with these restrictions. The passenger you spoke of here should have gotten out of the truck, and took a cab. The "D.O.T." where I live is not only concerned about weight but commercial traffic that use our roads without necessary permits. There has been many traffic violations thrown out because of unclear communication. If the sign said all trucks then anyone who stopped as a result would have a reasonable law suit. No one can stop you with out reasonable and probable cause.

The word "All" is all inclusive with out an adjective. You can argue this until where both dead but English is still English and has rules of grammar.
MB

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Rippon
Okay,so you don't believe in the whole counsel of the Word of God.

For those that believe that Calvinism is the "whole counsel of the word of God", do you teach your children the "whole counsel" and tell them that they may not have been elected to salvation? Do you tell them that they may be damned to hell because they weren't elected? Do you tell those you witness to that they may not be able to accept Christ because they are not "chosen"?

If this is the "whole counsel" of God, then you must present it to those you witness to.

 

[webdog]

For those that believe that Calvinism is the "whole counsel of the word of God", do you teach your children the "whole counsel" and tell them that they may not have been elected to salvation? Do you tell them that they may be damned to hell because they weren't elected? Do you tell those you witness to that they may not be able to accept Christ because they are not "chosen"?

If this is the "whole counsel" of God, then you must present it to those you witness to.

When I first started studying calvinism, this was something that didn't sit right with me. It was almost like they were being less than honest in giving the Gospel presentation. The excuse used is "we don't know who the elect are, so we share it with everyone like we are commanded" which almost seems like putting the dishonesty squarely on God's shoulder. Every calvinist pastor I know always preaches to the ENTIRE crowd (saved and lost alike, meaning there are "elect" and those not in the crowd) "believe, ask His forgiveness today, God loves you, etc." in their presentation. If this is not the whole counsel of truth...why are they leaving it off? If I truly believed God intended to allow all men to be damned and save only a few, I would be preaching just that, after all, only the few will "get it" anyways.

 

[ray Marshall]

I don't deny that there are times in which the word all is not all inclusive. I do deny that it is never all inclusive. In Jn 12:32 the word "all" is accompanied by an adjective which is "men" which makes the word all inclusive where men are concerned.
The word "all" above in your analogy only included all those in the sergeant’s charge. Still if this had been an evacuation for instance then the word all would have been all inclusive. This sergeant misused the word in ignorance. Even though it was generally known to whom he was referring.

Signs on the highway where I live do not say all trucks but, instead says all commercial traffic. It is only commercial traffic, that has to comply with these restrictions. The passenger you spoke of here should have gotten out of the truck, and took a cab. The "D.O.T." where I live is not only concerned about weight but commercial traffic that use our roads without necessary permits. There has been many traffic violations thrown out because of unclear communication. If the sign said all trucks then anyone who stopped as a result would have a reasonable law suit. No one can stop you with out reasonable and probable cause.

The word "All" is all inclusive with out an adjective. You can argue this until where both dead but English is still English and has rules of grammar.
MB

Bible verse... JESUS said I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me...Yet I don't see where ALL MEN/WOMEN are being drawned to him.

 

[ray Marshall]

When I first started studying calvinism, this was something that didn't sit right with me. It was almost like they were being less than honest in giving the Gospel presentation. The excuse used is "we don't know who the elect are, so we share it with everyone like we are commanded" which almost seems like putting the dishonesty squarely on God's shoulder. Every calvinist pastor I know always preaches to the ENTIRE crowd (saved and lost alike, meaning there are "elect" and those not in the crowd) "believe, ask His forgiveness today, God loves you, etc." in their presentation. If this is not the whole counsel of truth...why are they leaving it off? If I truly believed God intended to allow all men to be damned and save only a few, I would be preaching just that, after all, only the few will "get it" anyways.

Here's one thing that I don't understand.by your view......The creature being born naturely after being born from the womb, he then is damned for being born and told of men that because he was born he must do certain things to secure the love of GOD in order to go to Heaven. That doctrine was a curse of the Catholic church. I hate that man thinks that he can place this creature either in one place or another. That seems like damnation and comdemnation for being born. Man has no power to say where you will wind up. I believe the Bible and the written word inspired by GOD. If election, predestination, called, ALL quickened, and other teachings of the Bible offend you, then tear those pages out of your Bible. Wouldn't much be left to worry you. Get your BIG concordance, open it to Choose, Choice and Chosen and go to every verse with these words in them and find out WHO DOES THE CHOOSING. besides it will keep you busy for quiet some time. My Savior is JESUS CHRIST, THE SON, FATHER, and HOLY GHOST. And don't forget, Use the KING JAMES 1611 version.

 

[ktn4eg]

First - why you keep stating (without any warrent to do so) that those who do not accept Calvinism must be holding to Pelagianism

Friend Allan,

I've checked and re-checked my posts on this thread, and so far I haven't found one instance to substantiate your claim wherein " keep stating (without any warr[a]nt to do so) that those who do not accept Calvinism must be holding to Pelagianism...."

Would you be so kind to show me where in any of my posts on this thread where I have made that statement that you claim that apparently I have?

Thank you, Brother!

Blessings to you and yours.

PS -- Please see my PM to you with regard to the reference you made in Post #92 of a different thread.

 

[Amy.G]

And don't forget, Use the KING JAMES 1611 version.

Ok.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[webdog]

Bible verse... JESUS said I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me...Yet I don't see where ALL MEN/WOMEN are being drawned to him.

If they weren't drawn...how were they brought to the Truth in order to reject it (Rom 1)? I'm with you that man left to himself will not seek God, but the great thing is He hasn't left him to himself.
God is known through 1) creation, 2) His law written on our hearts (conscience) 3) created with the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11). He has reached out to us...all mankind.

 

[webdog]

Here's one thing that I don't understand.by your view......The creature being born naturely after being born from the womb, he then is damned for being born and told of men that because he was born he must do certain things to secure the love of GOD in order to go to Heaven. That doctrine was a curse of the Catholic church. I hate that man thinks that he can place this creature either in one place or another. That seems like damnation and comdemnation for being born. Man has no power to say where you will wind up. I believe the Bible and the written word inspired by GOD. If election, predestination, called, ALL quickened, and other teachings of the Bible offend you, then tear those pages out of your Bible. Wouldn't much be left to worry you. Get your BIG concordance, open it to Choose, Choice and Chosen and go to every verse with these words in them and find out WHO DOES THE CHOOSING. besides it will keep you busy for quiet some time. My Savior is JESUS CHRIST, THE SON, FATHER, and HOLY GHOST. And don't forget, Use the KING JAMES 1611 version.

Your argument falls apart very quickly, and is built on presupposition, not biblical truth.
No man is "damned" for being born from the womb. Man is "damned" for sinning...this is what Scripture has taught from Adam and Eve untilt the last man is born.
If you have issues with man "doing certain things" for salvation (not secure the love of God...He loves mankind to begin with), it is God that said "believe...and be saved", not I.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was reading a blog where the woman was saying that God hates gays and they will never be saved.

Then on a bulletin board, I hear a lot of the unsaved saying that God is love and He loves everybody.

So does God love everyone? I know He hates sin but what about the sinners?

God only loves me. Everyone else is in trouble. :laugh:

 

[ray Marshall]

Ok.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

good, thanks for using the 1611 edition.

 

[MB]

Bible verse... JESUS said I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me...Yet I don't see where ALL MEN/WOMEN are being drawned to him.

Maybe that's because you can't see there hearts.
MB

 

[MB]

Ray;
We can't see God either but we believe in Him.
MB

 

[MB]

Here's one thing that I don't understand.by your view......The creature being born naturely after being born from the womb, he then is damned for being born and told of men that because he was born he must do certain things to secure the love of GOD in order to go to Heaven. That doctrine was a curse of the Catholic church. I hate that man thinks that he can place this creature either in one place or another. That seems like damnation and comdemnation for being born. Man has no power to say where you will wind up. I believe the Bible and the written word inspired by GOD. If election, predestination, called, ALL quickened, and other teachings of the Bible offend you, then tear those pages out of your Bible. Wouldn't much be left to worry you. Get your BIG concordance, open it to Choose, Choice and Chosen and go to every verse with these words in them and find out WHO DOES THE CHOOSING. besides it will keep you busy for quiet some time. My Savior is JESUS CHRIST, THE SON, FATHER, and HOLY GHOST. And don't forget, Use the KING JAMES 1611 version.

I can't speak for webdog but it seems reasonable that if everyone just stuck to the Bible there wouldn't be any divisions. The problem with looking at each verse as you suggest that he do is that no one verse spells out the whole of it all where election is concerned. Calvinist believe in a particular election yet the Bible is very clear about the whosoevers.
It's true God did choose. Althought Calvinist neglect the idea that Christ died for the whole world not just a few of us. It was His choice to die for all of us and yes he will have mercy on whom He will and He did have mercy on the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Calvinist will say I'm claiming the whole world will be saved. Not true because we all have to submit to the righteousness of God no matter what we believe or know to be true.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

 

[ray Marshall]

If they weren't drawn...how were they brought to the Truth in order to reject it (Rom 1)? I'm with you that man left to himself will not seek God, but the great thing is He hasn't left him to himself.
God is known through 1) creation, 2) His law written on our hearts (conscience) 3) created with the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11). He has reached out to us...all mankind.

I don't have the Bible verses in my hand at this moment, but it reads somewhat like this.
Thau shalt not teach every man and his neighbor: to know the LORD: for I shall teach every one of them )His people) to know of me, for I shall take the old stony heart and give them a heart of flesh, and they shall all know of me.For I shall write it in their minds and print it in their hearts. Something like that.

I know I haven't quoted it perfectly but I know many know where it is found. I know that it is in both the OT and the NT also. Just don't have the Bible in my hand

 

[Allan]

I don't have the Bible verses in my hand at this moment, but it reads somewhat like this.
Thau shalt not teach every man and his neighbor: to know the LORD: for I shall teach every one of them )His people) to know of me, for I shall take the old stony heart and give them a heart of flesh, and they shall all know of me.For I shall write it in their minds and print it in their hearts. Something like that.

I know I haven't quoted it perfectly but I know many know where it is found. I know that it is in both the OT and the NT also. Just don't have the Bible in my hand

There isn't any verse (do not teach) aligned with making a heart of stone into flesh. There is this passage which state the exact opposite of 'do not teach':

Zec 8:16 These [are] the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

And in the previous chapter it describes men hardening their own heart to God's words to repent.

The later are passages found in Ezk 11:19; 36:26
But both of these passages are speacking of the restoration of 'Nation' of Israel.

And though the reference is used by Paul in 2 Cor 3:3 he is not stating this is prophesy fulfilled but is contrasting that work which God both has done now and will do at the appointed time with Israel.

But let us not also forget that the heart of stone is something desired by those whom God is calling to as noted in Zac 7:8-14 - SImply put man can not turn his heart of stone into flesh but he can stop the continuing to harden his own heart if he has not yet been turned over to his sinfulness by God. It is God who renews the heart (make it new again) as man has no ability to renew himself. God's hardening of man is always after they have rejected Him and/or His truth and hardened first themselves. God never hardens someone who has not yet rejected Him.

 

[Allan]

Friend Allan,

I've checked and re-checked my posts on this thread, and so far I haven't found one instance to substantiate your claim wherein " keep stating (without any warr[a]nt to do so) that those who do not accept Calvinism must be holding to Pelagianism...."

Would you be so kind to show me where in any of my posts on this thread where I have made that statement that you claim that apparently I have?

In your post #54 to me you stated this:

I could be wrong (hasn't been the first time!), but somehow I sense that that you believe that you believe that a spiritually dead person, of and by himself, possesses the capability of "choosing" to whether or not he ought to repent of his sins and trust Jesus Christ as his own personal Savior.

IOW - of and by himself = without God's intervention of any sort or grace.

This is shown even more clearly in your post #91 to Luk. which qualifies what you meant by "by himself":

Unless I've totally misread your postings, what you are trying to tell me is that a totally depraved person just, all of the sudden, and apart from any divine intervention or instrumentality whatsoever, possesses the inherent capacity to choose for himself to repent of his sins and--by himself--receive Jesus Christ as his own personal Savior.

The later quote is Pelagianism pure and simple and it is typically the assumed view by Cals of all those not Cals. It is incorrect by far and large though I dare say there might be a few who actually believes such non-sense - it is not a view held in main by non-Cals or even Arminians.

PS -- Please see my PM to you with regard to the reference you made in Post #92 of a different thread.

I didn't recieve a PM from you??

Check to see if it actaully got sent.