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Does God Ordain Our Sins?

1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
agedman said:
1 John
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
​
So, tell me scholar, how do yo bring reconciliation to the seeming disparity between that which you offered and what I offered?

Same book.
Same author.

So both must be true.

Bring your wisdom and show how these verses are to be accurately received.
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I told you how it works. If you are born again you should recognize the truth in this method Paul taught.

Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.
And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is Lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.
 
ThyWordIsTruth

ThyWordIsTruth

Member
1689Dave said:
I told you how it works. If you are born again you should recognize the truth in this method Paul taught.

Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.
And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is Lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.
Click to expand...

I think that this is going way off topic. The OP is does the Lord "ordain" our sins!
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
ThyWordIsTruth said:
I think that this is going way off topic. The OP is does the Lord "ordain" our sins!
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God causes our sins. He causes them based on our already present wickedness. And he builds a case against us by hardening our hearts and causing us to sin even greater sins. Even those in Christ are led into temptation and yield suffering even greater punishment as in the case of David. He almost killed the incestuous brother in the Corinthian Church but granted repentance and forgiveness instead. OFF-TOPIC? I'm showing you how to avoid sinning.
 
ThyWordIsTruth

ThyWordIsTruth

Member
1689Dave said:
God causes our sins. He causes them based on our already present wickedness. And he builds a case against us by hardening our hearts and causing us to sin even greater sins. Even those in Christ are led into temptation and yield suffering even greater punishment as in the case of David. He almost killed the incestuous brother in the Corinthian Church but granted repentance and forgiveness instead. OFF-TOPIC? I'm showing you how to avoid sinning.
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"God causes our sins"

Do you people ever read what the Bible actually teaches? It is VERY clear in James chapter 1

" Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." (verses 12-15)

IF, as it says that God cannot "tempt anyone to sin", then HOW can He "ordain or cause" any sins???

Human "theology" has done much damage to what the Bible actually teaches!
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
ThyWordIsTruth said:
ah, this is a good passage, which I believe has been misused by those who wish to show "election to salvation". It is evident that the Greek verb used here, "τεταγμένοι", can also have the meaning in the "middle voice", which in plain English means, that these Gentiles who gladly "accepted" the Gospel Message that was preached to them, by doing so, "appointed (aligned) themselves" with the Lord. This use here can be seen from verse 46, "hen Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.". Here it was the Jews, and not the Lord, who "pushed away" the Gospel, and "considered themselves not worthy of eternal life". These we self-determining actions, not brought about directly by the Lord.
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This is a passage that I believe has been rightly used by those who see God's electing grace, or choosing to salvation ( see 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) when they read the Scriptures.
This electing grace is clearly given apart from any man's efforts to gain God's favor by an act of righteousness, such as believing on Christ.

To me it is evident that the Greek verb used here, "τάσσω" ( transliterated as "tasso" ) has the meaning in the "passive voice"...which in plain English means, "having-been-set", "appointed", "determined", "commissioned", "set forth".
These Gentiles who gladly accepted the Gospel message did so because the Lord, in His grace and power, opened their hearts as He did Lydia's ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), that they might "attend" to the words of Paul and Baranabas.

In verse 46, the Jews pushed away the Gospel of their own free will;
A self-determining action not brought about directly by the Lord.
In verse 48, the Gentiles who believed did so of their own free will as well.
A self-determining ( or willful ) action that was brought about by the Lord.

The defining difference between verses 46 and 48 is God's opening of the heart, the new birth, which makes the unwilling person now willing, in and of themselves, to accept God's word...
Where before that His word was and is rejected in the hearts of men.

Good morning to you sir.
 
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atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
ThyWordIsTruth said:
But, what exactly do you Calvinists mean by the word "repent"?
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I don’t know about “you Calvinists”, but THIS Calvinist understands “repent” as “turn around” ...
... a change of direction best illustrated in the verse “Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.” [Eph 4:28 NKJV]
 
ThyWordIsTruth

ThyWordIsTruth

Member
atpollard said:
I don’t know about “you Calvinists”, but THIS Calvinist understands “repent” as “turn around” ...
... a change of direction best illustrated in the verse “Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.” [Eph 4:28 NKJV]
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Are you suggesting that the Christian "repentance" does not include "sorrow" from personal sins? This verse sums up exactly what is expected from a sinner, to be accepted by the Lord:

"But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’" (Luke 18:13)
 
ThyWordIsTruth

ThyWordIsTruth

Member
Dave G said:
This is a passage that I believe has been rightly used by those who see God's electing grace, or choosing to salvation ( see 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) when they read the Scriptures.
This electing grace is clearly given apart from any man's efforts to gain God's favor by an act of righteousness, such as believing on Christ.

To me it is evident that the Greek verb used here, "τάσσω" ( transliterated as "tasso" ) has the meaning in the "passive voice"...which in plain English means, "having-been-set", "appointed", "determined", "commissioned", "set forth".
These Gentiles who gladly accepted the Gospel message did so because the Lord, in His grace and power, opened their hearts as He did Lydia's ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), that they might "attend" to the words of Paul and Baranabas.

In verse 46, the Jews pushed away the Gospel of their own free will;
A self-determining action not brought about directly by the Lord.
In verse 48, the Gentiles who believed did so of their own free will as well.
A self-determining ( or willful ) action that was brought about by the Lord.

The defining difference between verses 46 and 48 is God's opening of the heart, the new birth, which makes the unwilling person now willing, in and of themselves, to accept God's word...
Where before that His word was and is rejected in the hearts of men.

Good morning to you sir.
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2 Thessalonians 2:13, is not as it reads in the KJV, as the textual evidence is better for the reading as found in the ESV, Latin Vulgate, and Greek manuscripts and other ancient versions:

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
ThyWordIsTruth said:
I am responding to this, "God controls your free choices". show me just ONE verse that says this?
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“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (NCPB)

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.” Proverbs 21:1 (NCPB)

“make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Hebrews 13:21 (NCPB)
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
ThyWordIsTruth said:
Are you suggesting that the Christian "repentance" does not include "sorrow" from personal sins? This verse sums up exactly what is expected from a sinner, to be accepted by the Lord:

"But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’" (Luke 18:13)
Click to expand...
No, I am not suggesting that.
Are you suggesting that is is enough to be “sorry” and continue to do the same sin over and over?
(What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [Rom 6:1 NASB])
 
ThyWordIsTruth

ThyWordIsTruth

Member
1689Dave said:
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (NCPB)

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.” Proverbs 21:1 (NCPB)

“make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Hebrews 13:21 (NCPB)
Click to expand...

so, by your own reasoning, if I murder someone, or rape, or steal, these choices that I make are those that God "worked in me" to do? Then how exactly are my choices "sinful", if they are what God wants me to do?
 
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