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Does James disprove Free Will?

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timtofly

Well-Known Member
James 3:9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God.

"men" plural - all men are in His image,
.
We do have a body and soul. We are not clouds. Being in God’s image as 2/3rd is still only 2/3rds. We are depraved because we are only 2/3rds. Those who choose Christ are still depraved. We are still in bodies of flesh. We just do not have to let the flesh will us to do fleshly desires.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
James says you cannot control your tongue, the least member. How about the big stuff?
Without the tongue, we cannot tell others about the Good News of the Gospel. You could mime? Hold signs, without interpretations? What is bigger than telling others about Jesus Christ and His Atonement on the Cross?
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
If you choose to do that, it is because he wants you to.
Sounds like you think God keeps changing His mind, based on my desires.

Life is not science. Life is not testing several theories to understand a final outcome. You are wrong about God wanting us to tempt Him, or do evil. James 1:13-15

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Without the tongue, we cannot tell others about the Good News of the Gospel. You could mime? Hold signs, without interpretations? What is bigger than telling others about Jesus Christ and His Atonement on the Cross?
But you sin with it too.
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you think God keeps changing His mind, based on my desires.

Life is not science. Life is not testing several theories to understand a final outcome. You are wrong about God wanting us to tempt Him, or do evil. James 1:13-15

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
No, he is perfect and cannot change.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Romans 1:18-32.
The image is corrupted by sin.;)

Dave could you please point out where this passage in Romans below teaches that (dare I say it) sin has the power to corrupt the image of God in man.

It is mans heart which is corrupted by sin brother. Here is what Our Father has to say about our human heart,

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Not just deceitful but deceitful above ALL THINGS.
Not just wicked but desperately wicked,
it is so horrible that even the personal realization of evil of one's own heart must come through divine revelation.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We do have a body and soul. We are not clouds. Being in God’s image as 2/3rd is still only 2/3rds. We are depraved because we are only 2/3rds. Those who choose Christ are still depraved. We are still in bodies of flesh. We just do not have to let the flesh will us to do fleshly desires.
true, we have power available to us from the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ to be overcomers.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Dave could you please point out where this passage in Romans below teaches that (dare I say it) sin has the power to corrupt the image of God in man.
Allow me to clarify...
As I understand Romans 1 teaching, God gave mankind over to that which then gradually corrupted us:
Sin and our love for it.

So, the way I reason it, we as men corrupt everything we touch..
Even the image of God that we are created in.

Is there Scripture that specifically states it this way?

No, so I suppose you got me there, Hank. ;)
It is mans heart which is corrupted by sin brother.
Amen.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allow me to clarify...
As I understand Romans 1 teaching, God gave mankind over to that which then gradually corrupted us:
Sin and our love for it.

So, the way I reason it, we as men corrupt everything we touch..
Even the image of God that we are created in.

Is there Scripture that specifically states it this way?

No, so I suppose you got me there, Hank. ;)

Amen.
i dont know of any Dave but doesn't mean that there isn't one or two tucked away some where.
 
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timtofly

Well-Known Member
Dave could you please point out where this passage in Romans below teaches that (dare I say it) sin has the power to corrupt the image of God in man.

It is mans heart which is corrupted by sin brother. Here is what Our Father has to say about our human heart,

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Not just deceitful but deceitful above ALL THINGS.
Not just wicked but desperately wicked,
it is so horrible that even the personal realization of evil of one's own heart must come through divine revelation.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
It also indicates that all humans are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conception. They are without excuse and protected from the Adversary. They are not protected from their own will, until they can understand. They are without excuse. They simply reject God because their own will is stronger than the free will of choice. The Holy Spirit still remains at work getting all to the point they can freely choose.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the link should be broken. A change of will is a choice that is free, unimpeded. The choice between wills is enabled by free will.


On one side of that choice is the will choosing only evil.

The other side is the will of choosing only good.

The will of one does not produce the fruit of the other. That we vacillate between the two wills is free will. Does it happen second by second in this human body? Woman claim it is their perogative. Men do it more often.

Free will is not the ability to choose options contained within each will type. Liberty in sin happens just as much as liberty in Christ. Free will may deal with other ideologies where humans as a governmental group bend human will, and call it culture. But most humans do not jump culture everyday. In Christ we have an adversary who wants us to jump ship many times a day. That is why we have to die to the flesh every day.

Free will is unimpeded by necessity (God) or fate (evil).
Tim,
I read this through and have to commend you for a well-thought-out response.
But I cannot seem to find any Scripture in it, and you haven't punctuated your thoughts with it, either.

Would you run through it again with Scriptural emphasis, please?
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Tim,
I read this through and have to commend you for a well-thought-out response.
But I cannot seem to find any Scripture in it, and you haven't punctuated your thoughts with it, either.

Would you run through it again with Scriptural emphasis, please?
Romans 1:19-25

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

This is not a blanket condition throughout history. This is conception to being reprobate. Verse 26, is the reprobate point.

This is God working in every single human at conception.

The will of God is Romans 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Believe:
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

Free will as belief has not been well defined. Accepting something as true, with assurance is the ability to choose unimpeded. Only the Holy Spirit can even get us to that point. Mark 9:23-24

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Nothing concerning Salvation and Atonement is about us. We really do not have a choice in our flesh nature. But free will can only be the point we change from our sinful will in flesh, and the seemingly impossible will of God. Not doing anything or trying to justify ourselves is not changing our will.

Are belief and free will the same thing? If you are going to find free will as defined today, in the Bible, that may be a start. Belief cannot save either, and "belief" has more uses than incorrect definitions of "free will".

Jesus claimed belief could do all things. Some accuse free will of having the same ability. I am just sticking with the ability to choose unimpeded by necessity or fate.
 

just-want-peace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God chooses for them. Their will is blind and cannot choose what it cannot see.

Well, I have truly learned something today. John (3:16) lied when he said; “- - WHOSOEVER - -“!!!!!!

{Sarcasm, friends, to show the fallacy of claiming that God chooses (allows OR denies) who can/will be saved. If this is true, then it is God, not the individual, who chooses heaven or hell for the person.}

If true that God DOES choose who is saved or goes to hell, and John DID lie about this, then what else might be a lie that we don’t even know about now???????
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
you don't have free will unless you choose to be as perfect as Christ.
You cannot choose without free will. Free will is the ability to choose.

One does not have free will, if they do not have the mental capacity to make a decision.
 
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