• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does the Bible teach Original Sin?

Status
Not open for further replies.

AustinC

Well-Known Member
What do you really know about Baptist history? Instead of using straw men, why not look at what the Anabaptists actually taught? Why not also look at scripture itself?

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Do you realize that Baptists do not all come out of the Anabaptist line of Menno Simons and other sects?

Ultimately you are making a Pelagian claim that humans are born perfect and without sin...until they sin.

Understanding Romans 5:12-19 will help.
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Do you fail to understand what God was saying to the exiles living in the canal region of the Tigris and Euphrates River in Babylon? Go study the long running dialogue Ezekiel was having with the Jewish exiles before you go ripping verses out of context to claim a meaning that neither Ezekiel nor God ever intended. It always shocks me how badly free-will proponents butcher the writing of Ezekiel. There is a reason why Rabbi's forbade the teaching of Ezekiel until many years of study had been done. You cannot just rip verses from Ezekiel and claim things out of context. It's biblically unsound and leads to really poor theology.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you fail to understand what God was saying to the exiles living in the canal region of the Tigris and Euphrates River in Babylon? Go study the long running dialogue Ezekiel was having with the Jewish exiles before you go ripping verses out of context to claim a meaning that neither Ezekiel nor God ever intended. It always shocks me how badly free-will proponents butcher the writing of Ezekiel. There is a reason why Rabbi's forbade the teaching of Ezekiel until many years of study had been done. You cannot just rip verses from Ezekiel and claim things out of context. It's biblically unsound and leads to really poor theology.
Ezekiel has nothing to say regarding spiritual , as he main point was that God will judge each persons sins in thnis life, and the one guilty of capital crime will be put to death, and not the one not commiting the crime!
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
It's kind of sad when people who claim to be Baptists are ignorant of their own history and have more in common with the persecutors and killers of the Anabaptists than with what the Anabaptists actually taught.
HD, you are very ignorant of church history. Listen to John Gerstner on the Anabaptists.
"The Anabaptists" from Ligonier Ministries The Anabaptists by John Gerstner

Also read this article as a primer.
Baptists and Their Theology – Baptist History and Heritage Society

It seems you are ignorant of Baptist history and why they are not Anabaptist Mennonites.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It is, under federal headship, see Paul and his take on Adam and second Adam Jesus!
No. It is not taught in the Bible. Federal heads-up is taught (in several aspects) but not the idea that men sinned prior to their actual sin. You are confusing Adam as the first man (as an example of his kind to come) with unborn people sinning.
 

Humble Disciple

Active Member
In the words of Calvinist apologist Cornelius Van Til, "Sin did not take away from man any of the natural powers that God had given him."
The Defense of the Faith

This would include our natural ability to choose between accepting or rejecting God's free offer of salvation in the Gospel.

If we were created in the image and likeness of God, that includes free will if God is a free being.
 
Last edited:

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel has NOTHING to do with spiritual state, refers to getting the capital punishment for doing crimes!

No brother, it has everything to do with the spiritual state:

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: IN his trespass that he hath trespassed, and IN his sin that he hath sinned, IN them shall he die.

If a man is IN sin and dies IN sin, he is lost to hell, as confirmed by the matching:

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die IN your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die IN your sins.

That's also how Paul described a lost man:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead IN trespasses and sins;

That's why I keep saying that salvation without works is only true under grace, not under the law.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No. It is not taught in the Bible. Federal heads-up is taught (in several aspects) but not the idea that men sinned prior to their actual sin. You are confusing Adam as the first man (as an example of his kind to come) with unborn people sinning.
No, as God sees all who were to be born after him to be born into that likeness of fallen adam!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In the words of Calvinist apologist Cornelius Van Til, "Sin did not take away from man any of the natural powers that God had given him."
The Defense of the Faith

This would include our natural ability to choose between accepting or rejecting God's free offer of salvation in the Gospel.

If we were created in the image and likeness of God, that includes free will if God is a free being.
Slaves to sin are not free!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No brother, it has everything to do with the spiritual state:

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: IN his trespass that he hath trespassed, and IN his sin that he hath sinned, IN them shall he die.

If a man is IN sin and dies IN sin, he is lost to hell, as confirmed by the matching:

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die IN your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die IN your sins.

That's also how Paul described a lost man:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead IN trespasses and sins;

That's why I keep saying that salvation without works is only true under grace, not under the law.
None were ever saved by the Law of the Ot though, and Ezekiel was referring to capital punishment for crimes and sins, not justification!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No, as God sees all who were to be born after him to be born into that likeness of fallen adam!
All men are in the likeness of Adam in the flesh. But that does not mean people sinned in Adam before they were born.

You have a habit of making one claim and then offering support for an entirely different matter.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All men are in the likeness of Adam in the flesh. But that does not mean people sinned in Adam before they were born.

You have a habit of making one claim and then offering support for an entirely different matter.
God pronounced judgement upon Adam, and all who were born in Him would have same curse be upon them, save for Lord Jesus!
Born with sin natures, spiritually dead, and in estranged state against God!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
God pronounced judgement upon Adam, and all who were born in Him would have same curse be upon them, save for Lord Jesus!
Born with sin natures, spiritually dead, and in estranged state against God!
No. I'm pretty sure Jesus suffered and died.
 

Humble Disciple

Active Member
According to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which was based on the Calvinist Westminster Confession, babies go to hell that are not God's elect:

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader

This is a horrific teaching, and contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

If original sin is true, as in inherited guilt rather than an inherited inclination toward sin, then unbaptized babies go to hell, which is contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

This is why the Catholic church practices infant baptism and formulated the unbiblical doctrine of limbo.

Anabaptists stubbornly held to Ezekiel 18:4 which explicitly states that “…it is only the person who sins who shall die.” Robert Friedman states that “The Ezekiel reference…freed the movement from the fatalistic character of inherited sin which was so characteristic of the Catholic Church and Protestant orthodoxy” (100). Anabaptists held that “…the sin of Adam and Eve introduced into the world a powerful tendency or inclination to sin which resulted in universal sinfulness, but it was a sinfulness by choice rather than by nature…The consequence of the sin in Eden was moral, not ontological, that is, inherited in human nature” (100).
Original Sin – Leaving it Behind (lV)
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
According to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which was based on the Calvinist Westminster Confession, babies go to hell that are not God's elect:



This is a horrific teaching, and contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

If original sin is true, as in inherited guilt rather than an inherited inclination toward sin, then unbaptized babies go to hell, which is contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

This is why the Catholic church practices infant baptism and formulated the unbiblical doctrine of limbo.
Your Pelagian tendencies grow stronger young one...
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
According to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which was based on the Calvinist Westminster Confession, babies go to hell that are not God's elect:



This is a horrific teaching, and contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

If original sin is true, as in inherited guilt rather than an inherited inclination toward sin, then unbaptized babies go to hell, which is contrary to what Baptists have traditionally taught.

This is why the Catholic church practices infant baptism and formulated the unbiblical doctrine of limbo.
I reject that though, as do see God electing all babies to be saved in Christ due to His grace!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top