Dreams

[agedman]

Neither of those indicate that we need to be regenerated in order to receive the Gospel. Eph. 2:8,9 is about the fact that we are not saved by works, but are saved by grace through faith. I Cor. 2:14 says that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, but that is in a context discussing the deep spiritual truths of Scripture. It does't mean that he has to be regenerated to hear and receive the Gospel message.

Perhaps you may recognize this condition in particular relating to the Jews:

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
​

If such is the condition of those charged with carrying the very “oracles of God,” how much worse condition is found of those who are also unregenerate.

 

[agedman]

I find it interesting that we don't see these hundreds of thousands of occurrences in other areas of the world where people have never heard of a Bible or Jesus or anything like that.

I know some missionaries in areas of the Muslim world that are quite hostile to the gospel, who have never mentioned any of these experiences. I have heard of many Muslim conversions due to the fact that ISIS actually drove Muslims to seek out Christians and these missionaries have led them to the Lord, but of the many accounts these missionaries relate, not one of them have encountered a Muslim who claims to have had a vision from Jesus.

It reminds me of the undocumented claims by some that they are seeing people raised from the dead or growing new arms and legs and stuff, but can't seem to ever produce clear proof of such things.

It would seem you are providing undocumented claims to refute undocumented claims. Or are you establishing yourself the arbitrary truth discerner?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither of those indicate that we need to be regenerated in order to receive the Gospel. Eph. 2:8,9 is about the fact that we are not saved by works, but are saved by grace through faith. I Cor. 2:14 says that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, but that is in a context discussing the deep spiritual truths of Scripture. It does't mean that he has to be regenerated to hear and receive the Gospel message.

My sister was cerebral palest.... how could she hear and understand

 

[37818]

You are mixing revelation, visions, and dreams.

The OP is about dreams not visions.

There is revelation and there are revelations. Dreams or visions void of revelation? If one understands that all of God's word is a form of revelation. Revelation 19:10. Luke 24:44. Matthew 4:4.

 

[Jerome]

Reinforcement

Yes, especially given to those facing severe persecution and trials.

As the precious 'Geneva Bible' notes at Acts 7:55, regarding Stephen and other Martyrs' glimpses into heaven:

55 ¹But he being full of the holy Ghost, looked steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus ²standing at the right hand of God,
¹The nearer that the Martyrs approach to death, the nearer they beholding Christ, do rise up even into heaven.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/GenevaBible.pdf

 

[Jerome]

Such as this account involving Ann Gifford and her husband Andrew who was one of the signers of the vaunted 1689 London Baptist Confession, prior to one of his imprisonments for preaching the Gospel:

https://reformedbaptista.wordpress.com/2015/02/02/the-women-behind-the-1689-mrs-gifford

"the night before his apprehension....His wife dreamed that he arose to go out to preach according to his appointment; but upon opening the door, the very first step he took was up to his knees in snow...that he was seized by two particular men, whose names she mentioned, and brought to the Sun Tavern, that then was without Lawford’s Gate, and there confined in a dining room, being placed behind a particular table in it; and one of them, by main force, held him down by leaning on his right shoulder and the other on his left."

"It made such an impression that she awakened with the fright, and told him of it....They arose, and upon opening the door to the yard, they found there had fallen a great snow since they went to bed, with a severe frost, that had driven up to the house, so that the first step indeed was up to his knees....he was taken according to her dream, and every particular circumstance of it was the next day exactly fulfilled."

 

[GoodTidings]

It would seem you are providing undocumented claims to refute undocumented claims. Or are you establishing yourself the arbitrary truth discerner?

I don't need to document what missionaries have told me. Most of these missionaries are in areas of the world that are hostile to the gospel and I am not going to name names or locations given that I don't want to jeopardize their lives.

 

[GoodTidings]

Perhaps you may recognize this condition in particular relating to the Jews:

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
​

If such is the condition of those charged with carrying the very “oracles of God,” how much worse condition is found of those who are also unregenerate.

That was only a partial hardening and not what Calvinists refer to when they talk about the inability of some unregenerate to hear/obey the Gospel. Nothing in the Bible supports this added concept of inability.

And besides, the Bible doesn't use the word "regenerated" to refer to some intermediary state between being unsaved and saved.

 

[GoodTidings]

That isn't what is supported by Scripture statement:

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”
​

It does not say “meet the needs of the human heart.” That is adding on to the intent of the Scriptures.

I did not attribute that value to the II Tim. 3:16-17. But the Bible does meet all of the needs of the human heart in that it addresses those needs and how God fulfills them all.

​

That statement is contrary to the presentation of the unregenerate level of ability as shown in places such as 1 Corinthians 2.

The Gospel is understandable to anyone. The deeper truths that Paul was actually talking about in 1Cor. 2 are not understandable.

I added nothing to the text.

The TEXT states WORLD, I take the text at value. World means world, and not a select few as a subset of the whole.

Reading comprehension is not one of my current deficiencies, though it is creeping up.

The text doesn't say the Holy Spirit is poured out on the whole world. The "pouring out" part is the part you are adding to the text.

Actually, it validates the experiences many believers have witnessed. You not putting stock in reports does not prove the reports are baseless.

It doesn't validate any modern reports at all. It isn't meant to validate them. It addresses an experience in Scripture. It is not forming a doctrine.

It is because you have persistently pressed on in this rabbit trail.

Be that as you will, you have been given abundant information in which to bring a more balanced approach to that which you hold.

Would you like to return to the OP and share how the Holy Spirit was working in a certain dream or even a nightmare?

You have not provided any information at all. And this is not a rabbit trail. I have never had a dream that the Holy Spirit ever "worked" in.

 

[GoodTidings]

My sister was cerebral palest.... how could she hear and understand

But that is not what I am referring to. Those whose disabilities hinder their understanding isn't what we are talking about. I simply referred to the Calvinist claim that we are all born unable to hear the voice of God until God "regenerates" the elect. The Bible supports no such doctrine.

 

[Reynolds]

But that is not what I am referring to. Those whose disabilities hinder their understanding isn't what we are talking about. I simply referred to the Calvinist claim that we are all born unable to hear the voice of God until God "regenerates" the elect. The Bible supports no such doctrine.

What exactly does the Bible teach? I hear all the non-Cals rage against total depravity, what is the viable alternative?

 

[JonC]

My rule is to never discount the work of God in the live of another person. If they say God spoke to them, I'll accept it until what was said does not line up. If they dreamed a dream or saw a vision, then who am I to question their experience....until it does not line up with Scripture.

 

[GoodTidings]

What exactly does the Bible teach? I hear all the non-Cals rage against total depravity, what is the viable alternative?

I am not against teaching that unregenerate humanity is depraved I am speaking against the added element of "inability" that Calvinists add to the concept. That "inability" is not contained in Scripture.

 

[GoodTidings]

My rule is to never discount the work of God in the live of another person. If they say God spoke to them, I'll accept it until what was said does not line up. If they dreamed a dream or saw a vision, then who am I to question their experience....until it does not line up with Scripture.

If someone is having a vision or a dream and the vision or dream is saying exactly what the Bible says, then what is the point of the dream/vision? If the information is already in the Bible and available, then the vision was unnecessary.

In the Bible dreams and visions were revelatory, they imparted previously unknown information that wasn't previously known or available. There was a purpose to dreams and visions because they did not have it revealed to them in Scripture. Dreams and visions were not teaching tools, per se. Ananias in Acts 9 would not have been able to line his vision up with Scripture, neither would Peter, and others because their visions contained new information not previously revealed.

Since we have the Bible and it is complete, we don't need visions or dreams to tell us what we already have revealed to us in the Bible.

 

[Reynolds]

I am not against teaching that unregenerate humanity is depraved I am speaking against the added element of "inability" that Calvinists add to the concept. That "inability" is not contained in Scripture.

A totally depraved person is indeed unable.

 

[GoodTidings]

A totally depraved person is indeed unable.

But the Bible doesn't say that. That's my point. "Inability" is a Calvinist teaching; it is not a biblical teaching. It is something that Calvinists are adding to the Scriptures and as such, is a false teaching.

 

[Reynolds]

I am not against teaching that unregenerate humanity is depraved I am speaking against the added element of "inability" that Calvinists add to the concept. That "inability" is not contained in Scripture.

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

 

[GoodTidings]

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

That does not speak to the issue of inability. Nothing in the entire Romans 3:9-20 passage says anything about an unsaved person having an inability to hear or respond to the Gospel prior to "regeneration." In addition, the Bible doesn't speak of any kind of regenerated state that stands as intermediate condition between being totally depraved and saved. Again, all of that is Calvinistic, but not biblical.

 

[Reynolds]

That does not speak to the issue of inability. Nothing in the entire Romans 3:9-20 passage says anything about an unsaved person having an inability to hear or respond to the Gospel prior to "regeneration." In addition, the Bible doesn't speak of any kind of regenerated state that stands as intermediate condition between being totally depraved and saved. Again, all of that is Calvinistic, but not biblical.

no one understands; no one seeks for God.

 

[GoodTidings]

no one understands; no one seeks for God.

But that is not due to an inability to hear or obey the Gospel. It comes from sinful rebellious condition. Why would God waste His time, in the OT, calling out to unregenerate Israel to return to Him if they were unable to hear Him and respond? Why send prophets to a people who did not have the ability to respond and obey?

Paul didn't say they don't understand because they are unable. He didn't say they don't seek God because they are unable to seek God until God allows them to do so. My point is that you cannot produce a passage that says anything about a person being unable to respond to God unless God makes it possible for them to respond.